Replace the Hoover Dam with the Three Gorges Dam

[Kc7mxo]

well, not to be insulting. . . what has the rest of the world DONE lately? something that actually qualifies as a "wonder"

The chunnel is about the only thing I can think of that really might qualify. Maaaaybe that airport they built basically out of the ocean in japan.

The three gorges dam isn't complete yet, so I dont think it can be counted.

When you get down to it, the US is respobsible for the internet, it is responsible for the SETI program, it is responsible for the manhattan program (with a little imprted german ingenuity), the statue of liberty wasn't built here, but if it wasn't in new york it'd just be a silly bronze statue made by some french guy. being in new york is what gave it meaning.

personally i think having too many wonders just gets crazy, and I'd prefer they kept it to seven per age. Its only a "wonder" if its unique and valuable. if half the cities in the world have "wonders", whats the big deal?

[Dis]

I guess I forgot about all those wonders. I never build them.

The Europeans have a supercollider in Switzerland I believe. But that really can't be counted as a wonder.

Japan has done some great things, same as China as has been noted.

I just feel Hoover is significant. You could include both dam. But 2 dams really seems too much for a game.

[Aro]

Originally posted by Kc7mxo
well, not to be insulting. . . what has the rest of the world DONE lately? something that actually qualifies as a "wonder"

Oh, boy

Channel Tunnel (England & France)
CN Tower (Toronto)
Empire State Building (New York) *
Golden Gate Bridge (San Francisco) *
Itaipu Dam (Brazil/Paraguay)
Netherlands North Sea Protection Works (Netherlands)
Panama Canal (Panama)

American Society of Civil Engineers

Some lists include Sidney Opera House (a beauty), Brasilia, the Petronas Towers... You have already mentioned that japanese airport (Narita? ), Hoover Dam Eiffel Tower, Aswan Dam, Suez Canal, Statue of Liberty (given to the U.S. by France )... As you see, many of these are from XIXth century.

We should look for something less "material", too. What about the world organization “Medecins Sans Frontieres (Doctor Without Borders)? The willing of helping people in an organized, international and efficient way IS a wonder of modern world. In this case, it’s a French Wonder.
Guernica, Picasso’s masterpiece, or psychoanalysis (Great Wonder: Freud’s famous couch )… Jazz (this one is a genuine American wonder: The Blue Note Record Company!)
Man, we’re living in a world of wonders.

[Dis]

One more obvious point. at least to me. It has been said the dam hasn't been comleted yet, which is an important distinction.

Because when the dam is online, it could fail. .

Wouldn't the civ4 designers looks stupid including a dam as a great wonder when it has failed.

[Aro]

Originally posted by Dis
One more obvious point. at least to me. It has been said the dam hasn't been comleted yet, which is an important distinction.

Because when the dam is online, it could fail. .

Wouldn't the civ4 designers looks stupid including a dam as a great wonder when it has failed.

[Sandman]

The Colossus fell down pretty quick, though.

Note: The Three Gorges Dam will have a generating capacity that's between 50% and 100% greater than the next biggest dam (Itaipu), and ten times the capacity of the Hoover Dam.

[Dis]

The colossus didn't fall down through faulty construction, but due to earthquake. Unless you argure that it should have been earthquake proof. .

It's very unlikely the dam would fail. But you never know... .

I always thought we've reached an age where we have so many checks, and computer to aid in engineering, that we would not have any large construction projects that fail. But that bridge that failed in Washington was fairly recent. Pretty wild looking as well. Check it out on engineering disasters on the history channel.

[Kc7mxo]

Originally posted by Aro


Oh, boy

Channel Tunnel (England & France)
CN Tower (Toronto)
Empire State Building (New York) *
Golden Gate Bridge (San Francisco) *
Itaipu Dam (Brazil/Paraguay)
Netherlands North Sea Protection Works (Netherlands)
Panama Canal (Panama)

building a buiilding slightly taller than the next tallest building in the world does NOT qualify as a wonder. it qualifies as a "yeah, we made a big building a few decades ago too"

And since 3 of those things were american anyway, you're not really affecting my point. . .

same deal with the itaipu dam, a big amazing dam was ALREADY built. building one a little bigger isn't a wonder. getting their FIRST is what makes it a wonder.

the netherlands NSW is something i hadn't heard of before, and i'll give you that its pretty impressive. Not sure what effect it'd have as a wonder though. The Netherland's rather unique situation (living on land thats below sea level) isn't something thats really represented in civ.

American Society of Civil Engineers

Some lists include Sidney Opera House (a beauty), Brasilia, the Petronas Towers... You have already mentioned that japanese airport (Narita? ), Hoover Dam Eiffel Tower, Aswan Dam, Suez Canal, Statue of Liberty (given to the U.S. by France )... As you see, many of these are from XIXth century.

opera house is neat, but I'd hardly call it a world wonder. and i know its a personal opinion but i don't agree that its a beautiful building. everyone has different tastes though. it just hasn't had any sort of large scale effect on civilization that I'm aware of.

We should look for something less "material", too. What about the world organization “Medecins Sans Frontieres (Doctor Without Borders)? The willing of helping people in an organized, international and efficient way IS a wonder of modern world. In this case, it’s a French Wonder.
Guernica, Picasso’s masterpiece, or psychoanalysis (Great Wonder: Freud’s famous couch )… Jazz (this one is a genuine American wonder: The Blue Note Record Company!)
Man, we’re living in a world of wonders.

I dont think paintings are really world wonders, and psychoanalysis is more of a technology as would jazz be.

The DWB may have had an impact in that it helps people, but has it had any sort of revolutionary effect on the way international organizations operate? If you wanted something like this, you should choose the Red Cross. Its been around since 1863 vs the dwb's foundation in 1970. Of course that makes it an industrial era wonder rather than a modern one i suppose.

[vee4473]

Originally posted by Sn00py





And just for everyone elses information, the Hoover Dam is not listed as one of the 7 modern wonders. While it was a first and it is massive, it wasn't exactly the hardest thing to do, thanks to its chosen location.

You have to be kidding me.

It wasn't the hardest thing to do??? yet it was the first of its kind and massive??

Is it possible to contradict yourself more?

The Hoover Dam was built during the depression and completed in a relatively short time considering the time and circumstances in which it was built.

The number of men who died building it varies, but if you research the Dam, you can only conclude that it was a wonder considering the above.

It was the largest dam of its time. That coupled with being built by such a young nation in the midst of an economic depression qualifies it as a wonder.

If you can't admit that it was a difficult thing to do (which is farcical in and of itself), then you surely can see that given the time in which it was built, by a young country in the middle of a crisis, it was indeed an unlikely achievement.

A testament to the American spirit.

Period.

It's almost like saying the Great Wall of China isn't a wonder. Of course it is! The Chinese people, slaves, prisoners, citizens and all, built a massive wall in ancient times to protect from an attack.

As far as the other wonders are concerned, the US has indeed made many.

Why rewrite history simply to relegate America?

Are achievements achievements or are they subject to whoever hates the country that achieved them?

However that hate may be misplaced.

[Aro]

Originally posted by Kc7mxo

And since 3 of those things were american anyway, you're not really affecting my point. . .

Actually, 5 of those things... Itaipu Dam and Panama Canal are in America, too (Central America and South America... )
Or, if you are talking about USA, only 2 of those things are American... Since one is Canadian.

I dont think paintings are really world wonders…

Well... some of those paintings are World Wonders. And it costs the same...

and psychoanalysis is more of a technology as would jazz be.

Wow! Being a musician I have to disagree. Jazz isn’t a tech. Of course, you have technologies as prerequisites, but Jazz definitely isn’t a technique.

About psychoanalysis, Yes, you’re right: Religion, Philosophy and Psychoanalysis are different aspects of the same thing, for many people... And two of these actually are civ techs.
But the Famous Freud’s Couch could be a World Wonder. Or the Colossus of Vienna…

The DWB may have had an impact in that it helps people, but has it had any sort of revolutionary effect on the way international organizations operate? If you wanted something like this, you should choose the Red Cross. Its been around since 1863 vs the dwb's foundation in 1970. Of course that makes it an industrial era wonder rather than a modern one i suppose.

Revolutionary effect? What about Greenpeace... Or Woodstock?

Btw, I have to agree about Hoover Dam... It's damn cool!

[Dis]

Originally posted by vee4473


You have to be kidding me.

It wasn't the hardest thing to do??? yet it was the first of its kind and massive??

Is it possible to contradict yourself more?

The Hoover Dam was built during the depression and completed in a relatively short time considering the time and circumstances in which it was built.

The number of men who died building it varies, but if you research the Dam, you can only conclude that it was a wonder considering the above.

It was the largest dam of its time. That coupled with being built by such a young nation in the midst of an economic depression qualifies it as a wonder.

If you can't admit that it was a difficult thing to do (which is farcical in and of itself), then you surely can see that given the time in which it was built, by a young country in the middle of a crisis, it was indeed an unlikely achievement.

A testament to the American spirit.

Period.

It's almost like saying the Great Wall of China isn't a wonder. Of course it is! The Chinese people, slaves, prisoners, citizens and all, built a massive wall in ancient times to protect from an attack.

As far as the other wonders are concerned, the US has indeed made many.

Why rewrite history simply to relegate America?

Are achievements achievements or are they subject to whoever hates the country that achieved them?

However that hate may be misplaced.

great post. I'm kind of a Hoover dam history buff. Back then there were not even any roads leading to the site! No town or housing to house any workers. No running water (except the colorado river of course). No electricity. No pipelines to carry fuel. No railroad tracks to carry supplies. Absolutely nothing. The nearest town was Las Vegas and it was very small back then. It had no industrial capacity except for the railroad.

It simply amazes me people don't realize what a desert is. Sure now days a desert isn't very bad. But back then, it was very desolate and had no service and no industrial capacity.

[Dis]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/society_culture/industrialisation/hoover_dam_01.shtml

The rising sun also brought another scourge - that of heat. The spring and summer of 1931 was the hottest on record: on 24 July 1931, Ragtown's temperature in the midday sun rose to 143 degrees. 'Sometimes you'd feel like you couldn't get your breath', says Helen Holmes. 'At night it was so hot you had to wet sheets to be able to rest, because you just couldn't sleep.'

'It would get to be 120 degrees by nine in the morning and it wouldn't get below 120 before nine at night. You could see the heat dancing off the cliffs. For my littlest baby, the one that was only five months old, I would put a wet sheet around her crib so the air would blow through it. But it wasn't enough.'

resh water was another problem: men dug holes in the river bank, which filled with water, and when the mud had separated out their wives could dip buckets in to retrieve water for drinking and cooking. But it wasn't clean, and dysentery frequently swept the settlement. Sanitary arrangements were rudimentary, and ditch latrines were the norm, sprinkled with slaked lime to control stench and disease

Work on the tunnels that would eventually divert the Colorado River away from the construction site began in May 1931, and provided work for hundreds of men. But because the contractor, Six Companies, used petrol-driven trucks and machinery in the tunnels, workers had to breathe carbon monoxide day in, day out, while they worked for their meagre $4-a-day wage.

Even Murl Emery, whose boats carried workers from Ragtown into Black Canyon, was called upon to lead a rescue operation when dozens of men were taken ill with carbon monoxide poisoning. As he remembers, 'They were hauling men out of those tunnels like cord wood.'

just a few of the deaths in a short time period.

May 17: Harry Large and Andrew Lane die in a rock slide; May 18: Fred Olsen dies in a premature explosion; June 26: Ray Hapland dies of heat prostration; June 27: Pat Shannon dies of heat prostration; June 28: Mike Madzia dies of heat prostration.'

show me the Chinese workers are working in conditions such as these, and I'll concede that should be a wonder and not the Hoover Dam.

I agree there are too many european and western wonders. But I don't agree removing some important feats for politically correct purposes.

[Kc7mxo]

Or, if you are talking about USA, only 2 of those things are American... Since one is Canadian.

sorry, thought you'd listed statue of liberty there.

Well... some of those paintings are World Wonders. And it costs the same...

personally i can't see the attraction of those impressionist paintings which many place such a value on. art is subjective.

Wow! Being a musician I have to disagree. Jazz isn’t a tech. Of course, you have technologies as prerequisites, but Jazz definitely isn’t a technique.

Jazz can be taught. It has techniques. It even has some soft edged rules. Its studied and used by people of all ages and has been expanded and devloped further since its inception. Sounds like a technology to me.

Revolutionary effect? What about Greenpeace... Or Woodstock?

pyramids had a dramatic effect and was known all around. not just by a buncha . . . chemically enhanced. . . music fans who liked to play in the mud.

the statue of liberty stood for a major philisophy, and was the first thing many immigrants saw of america as they sailed into the harbor. it was a gift between two allied and friendly nations.

the internet has had a massive and not needed to talk about effect.

the great wall, the oracle at delphi to my mind those are easily defined "wonders" which had a massive effect on both the societies that built them, and every society that saw them.

if they start including every mud hut university some civilization built before they fell into obscurity they might as well change the description to:

"The 999 slightly more impressive than your tree house thingamjigs of the world"

[Lancer]

Maybe dams should be minor wonders.

[Dis]

Originally posted by Lancer
Maybe dams should be minor wonders.

that's not a bad idea. I'll admit, most things built today just aren't impressive. Even Hoover Dam cannot compare to the pyramids. And the internet as a great wonder? I'm not sure I buy it.