Replace the Hoover Dam with the Three Gorges Dam

[MxM]

from http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com

Largest Concrete Dam
Work on the Grand Coulee dam, on the Columbia River, Washington State, USA, began in 1933. The dam was finally completed in 1942, at a total cost of $56 million. It has a crest length of 1,272 m (4,173 ft) and is 168 m (551 ft) high.

[Shogun Gunner]

But Colossus is? I mean, it really wasn't that great of an engineering feat...even considering the era.

I think things like the Internet and Hoover Dam are a bit more symbolic and represent fundamental changes in society. Hoover for large scale modern construction projects, never before seen volume of electrical generation from waterflow, and irrigation on a massive scale.

For the Internet, it seems to represent the beginning of the Information Age. They could have picked the first US computer built in WW2 (can't remember the name)... but really what else where they going to pick for this? The IBM PS/2? The creation of Ethernet? The Internet will do.

[MxM]

Originally posted by Kc7mxo
well, not to be insulting. . . what has the rest of the world DONE lately? something that actually qualifies as a "wonder"

Ghm...
first space satellite?
first human in space?
first spacewalk?
First hydrogen bomb (nothing to be proud here but still, the most powerful bomb)

These are just a few real non-american "wonders"

[MxM]

Originally posted by Shogun Gunner
first US computer built in WW2 (can't remember the name)...

Or yes, another thing which was not done in US: Colossus computer: - build by Brits in WW2, or Z3 build by Germans are considered to be first computers.

[Aro]

personally i can't see the attraction of those impressionist paintings which many place such a value on. art is subjective.

Jazz can be taught. It has techniques. It even has some soft edged rules. Its studied and used by people of all ages and has been expanded and devloped further since its inception. Sounds like a technology to me.

This is a slippery terrain.
Art is subjective… Or isn’t?
Jazz has been expanded and developed and so, and there are techniques that you have to learn to play Jazz (or rock, or classic music). This is necessary, but not sufficient. To write a song like Round Midnight you’ll need a little bit of the same quality you needed to build the Pyramids or, say, elaborate the Constitution of United States of America. Can’t you see?
Art is Civilization!!!

In Jazz case, Tin Pan Alley, or the Blue Note Record company could be Wonders, in the same sense of JS Bach Cathedral. Just as an example.

Btw, Guernica, the impressive (though not impressionist ) Picasso’s masterpiece, IS a World Wonder, no matter what you say.

pyramids had a dramatic effect and was known all around. not just by a buncha . . . chemically enhanced. . . music fans who liked to play in the mud.

Talking about dramatic effects…
Well, those hippies had a dramatic effect on the world culture, and they are known all around. … And still having effects, although not so dramatic nowadays...

the statue of liberty stood for a major philisophy, and was the first thing many immigrants saw of america as they sailed into the harbor. it was a gift between two allied and friendly nations.

Well, well… The Statue of Liberty is a French Wonder, we know that. They gave it to Americans… But allied and friendly nations???
Sorry, I just couldn’t resist.
I know you’re talking about what this statue represents, and I agree. Miss Liberty deserves a place in any World Wonders list.

if they start including every mud hut university some civilization built before they fell into obscurity they might as well change the description to:

"The 999 slightly more impressive than your tree house thingamjigs of the world"

???
I really don't want to include "every mud hut university... etc", but we should expand our horizons. Don’t you think?

[Sandman]

The main reason I'm suggesting replacing the Hoover Dam isn't political correctness, it's because the Three Gorges Dam is the largest dam ever built, by a substantial margin.

[Kc7mxo]

Originally posted by Aro




This is a slippery terrain.
Art is subjective… Or isn’t?
Jazz has been expanded and developed and so, and there are techniques that you have to learn to play Jazz (or rock, or classic music). This is necessary, but not sufficient. To write a song like Round Midnight you’ll need a little bit of the same quality you needed to build the Pyramids or, say, elaborate the Constitution of United States of America. Can’t you see?
Art is Civilization!!!

Art is absolutly subjective in your enjoyment of it. But the techniques used in impressionist paintings can be considred, in my opinion, a teachable technique, which makes it a technology. If you want to consider a single song a wonder, or a single painting a wonder, you might have an argument. but it would have to be a universally recognized item that had a dramatic effect on world civilization, because otherwise, its just a painting which a buncha stuffy high class people make a big deal over. . .

In Jazz case, Tin Pan Alley, or the Blue Note Record company could be Wonders, in the same sense of JS Bach Cathedral. Just as an example.

Btw, Guernica, the impressive (though not impressionist ) Picasso’s masterpiece, IS a World Wonder, no matter what you say.

http://college-de-vevey.vd.ch/auteur/Picasso/guernica-init.jpg

i just do NOT see why people make a big deal over this stuff. its like that poem jabberwocky, that is essentially gibberish. some people like it, but others think its just gibberish. to each his own.

Talking about dramatic effects…
Well, those hippies had a dramatic effect on the world culture, and they are known all around. … And still having effects, although not so dramatic nowadays...

allright, we'll give it a negative to technolgoical advancment and industrial output. Hows that?

Well, well… The Statue of Liberty is a French Wonder, we know that. They gave it to Americans… But allied and friendly nations???
Sorry, I just couldn’t resist.
I know you’re talking about what this statue represents, and I agree. Miss Liberty deserves a place in any World Wonders list.

the french built a big statue. america made it into a representation of a philosophy of acceptance and the melting pot of cultural assimiliation.

and the french and the US used to be damn good buddies. Its only recently that our philosphies diverged. they saved us in a couple wars, we saved them in a couple. . . the US probably wouldn't be a free country if not for France's assistance. But we don't agree about international policy anymore.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Sandman
The main reason I'm suggesting replacing the Hoover Dam isn't political correctness, it's because the Three Gorges Dam is the largest dam ever built, by a substantial margin.

Yes, but it hasn't been built yet, and we'd have to move it in the tech tree.

[Yarco_TW]

Worthy being a wonder in Civ3?

Originally posted by Aro
I really don't want to include "every mud hut university... etc", but we should expand our horizons. Don’t you think?

The conversation here makes some good points.

Point # 1 is that some great feats were usually repeated later on even grander scales (Hoover Dam -> Iguasu Dam -> Three Gorges Dam). This raises the question which of these deserves the name of a wonder.

My answer is that the first copy is a wonder, as it is the one which influences the mind, and has global effect. Copies do not deserve being called wonders, they are just copies in respective places.

Point # 2 is that some great feats were done in different countries simultaneously (Pyramids were built in Mesoamerica, great libraries were not limited to Alexandria, religious wonders equivalent to Oracle, Sistine chapel and Bach's cathedral were built all over the world). For this reason I somewhat dislike current "mainstream" approach to wonders, in which the non-European civs have extremely few wonders in the list.

IMHO, to qualify fo a wonder the feat must
1) be first among such feats
2) have significant impact on civilization, which built it.
3) exist for significant period of time.

By these criteria we have some nice wonders, which are so far excluded:
1) Great Canal of China (Construction)
2) Great Inca Road (Engineering)

Also, religious wonders can have some regonal flavour. I really do not understand why Oracle is a greater wonder compared to Pyramid of the Sun (Teotihuacan), or how Sistine Chapel is more important then temples of Angkor, Borobodur, numerous wonder churches of India, stupas of Burma, ... The list can be continued.

I also think, that we deserve to have at least one Indian wonder, since that civ produced so many of them in reality.

I'd be glad to have wonders of non-european civs to exist in the game as well.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by MxM
First hydrogen bomb (nothing to be proud here but still, the most powerful bomb)

These are just a few real non-american "wonders"

The U.S. invented the H-bomb.

[Sandman]

Regarding the tech issue, the Three Gorges Dam could probably have been built from the seventies onward. Might be wrong, though.

[Aro]

Originally posted by Kc7mxo

Originally posted by Aro
This is a slippery terrain.
Art is subjective… Or isn’t?
Jazz has been expanded and developed and so, and there are techniques that you have to learn to play Jazz (or rock, or classic music). This is necessary, but not sufficient. To write a song like Round Midnight you’ll need a little bit of the same quality you needed to build the Pyramids or, say, elaborate the Constitution of United States of America. Can’t you see?
Art is Civilization!!!

Art is absolutly subjective in your enjoyment of it. But the techniques used in impressionist paintings can be considred, in my opinion, a teachable technique, which makes it a technology.

Do you mean… ?
Tech = Musical theory
Wonder = JSB Cathedral

If you want to consider a single song a wonder, or a single painting a wonder, you might have an argument. but it would have to be a universally recognized item that had a dramatic effect on world civilization, because otherwise, its just a painting which a buncha stuffy high class people make a big deal over. . .

The difference between a single painting and the Pyramids is the number of slaves involved.

just do NOT see why people make a big deal over this stuff.

http://college-de-vevey.vd.ch/auteur/Picasso/guernica-init.jpg

It's not your fault. Someday you’ll see why, I'm sure.

its like that poem jabberwocky, that is essentially gibberish. some people like it, but others think its just gibberish. to each his own.

Oh… Lewis Carroll…
Jabberwocky


Well, some people think the Pyramids are just a bunch of bricks. I’m serious.

Well, those hippies had a dramatic effect on the world culture, and they are known all around.

allright, we'll give it a negative to technolgoical advancment and industrial output. Hows that?

But you can research “hippie” techs to keep your people happy, like “Free Love”... or “Prozac”

the french built a big statue. america made it into a representation of a philosophy of acceptance and the melting pot of cultural assimiliation.

As I said.

IMHO, you “just do NOT see why people make a big deal over this stuff”. Art (and other “abstractions”) has no role in "your" Civilization unless to keep your citizens happy…

Unfortunately, my english is very bad, and it's very difficult to me find the words and put them in the correct sintaxis...(not arguments, I have tons! ) to have a good discussion. Sorry by that.

[Terra Nullius]

i must admit, if guernica doesn't rate, it's hard to justify the sistine. i mean it's basically a shack with a nice frescoe innit? for architecture, i much prefer la sainte chapelle.

Originally posted by Kc7mxo
If you want to consider a single song a wonder, or a single painting a wonder, you might have an argument. but it would have to be a universally recognized item that had a dramatic effect on world civilization,

ask and ye shall receive,..

[IMG]C:\DATA\My Pictures\big banana.jpg[/IMG]

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Sandman
Regarding the tech issue, the Three Gorges Dam could probably have been built from the seventies onward. Might be wrong, though.

Yes, but a) it wasn't and b) the Hoover dam was built in the 30's.

[Kc7mxo]

Originally posted by Aro
Do you mean… ?
Tech = Musical theory
Wonder = JSB Cathedral

yeah. basically, the concept isn't the wonder, its what you DO with it.

The difference between a single painting and the Pyramids is the number of slaves involved.

hmm, painters are sorta similiar to slaves. . . they're ussually barely fed, smell bad, miserable. . . . maybe a painting could be a wonder. of course the problem with that is its not restriscted to a single locale, anytime there's a war it'd be getting hauled around. or some bored billionire would snatch it and put it back without anyone noticing. . .

It's not your fault. Someday you’ll see why, I'm sure.

nah, my tastes are pretty well matured. they ain't gunna change.

Well, some people think the Pyramids are just a bunch of bricks. I’m serious.

find a single painting that has had a similair number of tourists from all over the world come gawk at it as the pyramids and i'll let you call it a wonder.

But you can research “hippie” techs to keep your people happy, like “Free Love”... or “Prozac”

ok, so, -1 research, -1 industrial output, +1 happy citizns and +1 population growth.

Unfortunately, my english is very bad, and it's very difficult to me find the words and put them in the correct sintaxis...(not arguments, I have tons! ) to have a good discussion. Sorry by that.

no worries. . . .although if you want to talk penguin i'd be willing to give it a go. its the national language of antartica, right?