Does Mali Deserve To Be In Civ IV?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Alexander01


Western prejudices of civs? I could just as easily accuse you of eastern prejudices of civs, but I haven't! Your thinly veiled insults are not warmly welcomed.

No, you couldn't. If anyone has been keen on including more Asiatic civilizations and wonders it's me.

'Civilization' in its various incarnations so far has been somewhat biased to a slightly old fashioned Judaeo-Christian Graeco-Roman view of history and civilization- giving us a preponderance of European civilizations or civilizations viewed through a Eurocentric filter.


How odd is it that the game is called 'Civilization' yet couldn't find room for Arabs or Turks or a South East Asian civilization or any sub-Saharan African or black African civilization (other than the Zulus) for what seemed the looongest time?

And yet Japan (!) gets a shoo-in each and every time.
And Mohandas Gandhi gets to be Indian leader yet again, and the wonders are disproportionately European or North American, et cetera, et cetera.

Wasn't there any science or any building or philosophy going on outside the borders of the Mediterranean world or the old Alexandrian Empire ?

And didn't Indian civilization exist before the days of the Moghuls and south of the Deccan ?

And so on...

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Kc7mxo


What would mali's unique unit be?

A horseman of some kind I expect- Mali had adopted them by the early 14th century and they were to play a great part in the expansion of the sucessor savannah based empires and states, and to remain status symbols in the forest/jungle based empires of West Africa.

I like the idea of a horseman in chainmail with indigo dyed cotton cloth over it, using a machete style of sword and also armed with a spear.

[Boris Godunov]

I've never understood the continued use of Gandhi as the Indian leader. Considering the actions every Civ has to undertake at certain points in the game, it's almost insulting to his memory. What about Chandragupta? Ashoka? Even Indira Gandhi? You know, actual leaders of India?

And don't get me started on Joan of Arc...

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


And don't get me started on Joan of Arc...

And Sheherazade... just plain daft.


Catherine de Medici for France, possibly, for her part in the Wars of Religion, and because she was an evil old
b!tch, but the Maid ?

Maid made a mistake.

[Aro]

Originally posted by molly bloom


.................


Catherine de Medici for France, possibly, for her part in the Wars of Religion, and because she was an evil old
b!tch, ..........

For shure!

The Medicis... Oh, boy! What a family! It's a shame Veneza and other italian State-Cities (sp?) are not in the game. The leaders, the wonders, the techs, the UU's!!!!
Modders... What about it?

[joncnunn]

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Alexander01
Western prejudices of civs? I could just as easily accuse you of eastern prejudices of civs, but I haven't! Your thinly veiled insults are not warmly welcomed.

Eastern prejudices? And when have I advocated taken a European civ out in order to include an Asian one (I must have missed where I said the Germans should be replaced with the Tebetansi). The continent with the most civs is Europe, followed by Asia. They don't need another.

You wonder why someone 1/4th Turk, such as myself, would be against putting the Turks in at this time. The reason is that there is just so many Eastern European and Middle Eastern civs in the game already (Russia, Greece, Rome, Arabs, Egyptians, Persians), that sticking another is overkill when other valid civs are left by the wayside. Though I'd like to see them in another expansion. Some of us like to play the World Map and some of us like diversity in our choices of Civs so it doesn't seem like we are playing the same civ over and over.

As for my 'thinley veiled insults', if the shoe fits....

[Kc7mxo]

I like the idea of a horseman in chainmail with indigo dyed cotton cloth over it, using a machete style of sword and also armed with a spear.

not to be a downer, but a horseman with spear, short sword and chainmail armor is hardly unique. did they use any special sort of tactics or training with them?

[Nikolai]

We don't need any more western civs than what already has been in Civ until now(that means: until C3C). Actually, I'd be in favour of letting some of those out. But if we are to let new civs in, please let them be among those which actually have had a little importance outside their immidiate surroundings. Mali is not among those I think. European, Middle Eastern and Asian civs are, because of how history has "chosen" to become, where we have to look for almost all of those.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Mali has a great deal of influence in its heyday. It was the center of gold and in the 1400s, 1500s, gold was a pretty big thing. It was a center of trading and wealth. Europeans knew about the kingdom had heard reports about how wealthy and awe inspiring it was.

So, yes, it was influential around its surroundings.

[Xorbon]

Originally posted by Kc7mxo
not to be a downer, but a horseman with spear, short sword and chainmail armor is hardly unique. did they use any special sort of tactics or training with them?

Didn't you read? It's the "indigo dyed cotton cloth" that makes them unique.

[Aro]

Originally posted by Xorbon


Didn't you read? It's the "indigo dyed cotton cloth" that makes them unique.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Xorbon


Didn't you read? It's the "indigo dyed cotton cloth" that makes them unique.

Ever heard of the blue men of the Sahara ?

Mali traded for indigo, and sold it on to the North African states. The colour blue is believed to have the fortunate capability of having a frequency that flies dislike mightily, which is why when you visit Morocco you'll also see those beautiful houses painted half indigo blue, half white.

not to be a downer, but a horseman with spear, short sword and chainmail armor is hardly unique. did they use any special sort of tactics or training with them?

Kc7mxo


'T'ain't a stabbing short sword, it's a machete type slashing sword. The spear is what does the stabbing. Which Civ already in the game has a similar unique unit ?

It's either that or bowmen- and I believe there's already a unique unit archer in Civ.

Horses reached the savannah from the north during or even before the first millennium a.d. , but they apparently either lost size in a less favourable environment or were small ponies which gave their owners an advantage in mobility rather than combat, especially because they were ridden without saddles, stirrups, or bits. Larger breeds of war-horses with the necessary harness probably reached West Africa during the thirteenth century. The model may have been the Mameluke cavalry of Egypt, for their first use in the savannah is attributed to Mai Dunama Dibalemi (c. 1210-48) of Kanem, the state most in touch then with Egypt.

[...]

Yet war-horses conferred status everywhere, for their cost- between nine and fourteen slaves on the Senegambian coast in the 1450s- made their owners a relatively exclusive class new to West Africa. Their horsemanship was often dashing and ruthless. Their swords and thrusting-spears bred the cavalryman's contempt for missile weapons and their users:

" Our army pursued, killing and wounding, with swords and spears and whips, till they were tired of it. The enemy's cavalry spurred their horses, andleft theinfantry behind like a worn-out sandal abandoned and thrown away, and teher was no means of safety for thos eon foot save teh providence of God, or recovery from a wound after crouching in the darkness."

Ahmed ibn Fartua from 'The Kanem Wars', quoted in 'Sudanese Memoirs' by H.R. Palmer

from:'Colonising Society in Western Africa', chapter 4 of 'Africans: The History Of A Continent' by John Iliffe publ. Cambridge University Press, 1995

MALI and SONGHAI armies were very similar with a high percentage of horsemen wearing chainmail and fighting with a long spear and sword. The cavalry relied on impact to break the dense formations of foot used by many of their enemies. Archers percentages may have been as high as 1/4 or 1/3. Native foot became more heavily armored as the empires grew. The forces used in campaigns were often custom designed for whether the target was Berbers in the steppes or a Mossi tribe located in a heavily wooded region.

Feudal levies and subject tribes still fought in local fashion, so should be light infantry or irregular loose or mass formations of mixed weapons. They were intentionally poorly trained and equipped to prevent revolts. The Songhai ghulams were a well -trained and equipped regular force. The long spear for both the cavalry and foot had a very wide blade and was considered very deadly. Therefore a player may want to rate his better infantry as either long spear or blade.

Mossi, Dogon, the early Fulani and other minor tribes had poorer quality equipment but could inflict defeats on the neighbouring empires.

http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/armies/Variants/sahelafrica.html

[Kc7mxo]

'T'ain't a stabbing short sword, it's a machete type slashing sword. The spear is what does the stabbing. Which Civ already in the game has a similar unique unit ?

what stat bonus are they going to get?

and just about every horseman in history has used a slashing sword and a stabbing spear, i'm just trying to get a feel on what makes them unique.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Kc7mxo


what stat bonus are they going to get?

and just about every horseman in history has used a slashing sword and a stabbing spear, i'm just trying to get a feel on what makes them unique.

I'm not sure. Perhaps extra movement in desert or scrub land, and a defensive bonus against archers other than say, longbowmen or those using composite bows ?

And saying 'every horseman in history' et cetera is slightly inaccurate- you wouldn't use a stabbing spear on horseback unless you had stirrups, a saddle with pommel, or some other means of ensuring you didn't get knocked off whilst doing the stabbing, and so on.

So really it's every horseman in history except for the ones that didn't: the Huns, Parthians, Mongols, Celts et cetera.

No to mention other horsemen would have been armoured differently- leather, cotton or paper armour for steppe horsemen, metal breastplates for others.

Chainmail is more sensible for their climate, as the Fatimids and Mamelukes knew.

" Within the Ghana, Mali and Songhai Empires cavalry was used extensively, because the horses could survive in the smoldering grassland. With the right amount of funding, the empires could make very large regiments of cavalry. For instance, Ghana could field around 200,000 armed horsemen. These large forces of cavalry would secure trade across the savannah, and enabled the West African Kingdoms to conquer small regions easily, with the huge advantage. In western regions of Africa, not suitable for horses like the Gold Coast, tight armies that used handheld weapons, with the tactical aid of archers fought against outside rule. However for a very long time the cavalry dominated the majority of regions in Western Africa. "


" Each Empire to take control of the western savanna took advantage of cavalry. Those who mounted the horses of the great African cavalry had to be fairly great themselves. For instance, the cavalry of the Mali and Songhai Empire both primarily consisted of elite corps of the military, and membership was restricted to those of aristocracy."

'West African Wager: Houphouet versus Nkrumah'. The Scarecrow Press, Inc. Methuen, N.J. 1972

Jon Woronoff


' Beyond Chiefdoms: Pathways to Complexity in Africa'. Cambridge University Press. 1999

by Susan Keech McIntosh

http://www.plu.edu/~allenjjj/index.html