Does Mali Deserve To Be In Civ IV?

[Datajack Franit]

[vStauffenberg]

just some extra info from bbc.co.uk:

"MALI DISCOVERS AMERICA?
'So Abubakar equipped 200 ships filled with men and the same number equipped with gold, water, and provisions, enough to last them for years…they departed and a long time passed before anyone came back. Then one ship returned and we asked the captain what news they brought.

He said, 'Yes, Oh Sultan, we travelled for a long time until there appeared in the open sea a river with a powerful current…the other ships went on ahead, but when they reached that place, they did not return and no more was seen of them…As for me, I went about at once and did not enter the river.'

The Sultan got ready 2,000 ships, 1,000 for himself and the men whom he took with him, and 1,000 for water and provisions. He left me to deputise for him and embarked on the Atlantic Ocean with his men. That was the last we saw of him and all those who were with him.

And so, I became king in my own right.'
Mansa Musa, talking to Syrian scholar Al-Umari."


(from http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/af...chapter3.shtml)

[Yarco_TW]

Re: Does Mali Deserve To Be In Civ IV?

My Answer: Yes, Mali is an excellent choice to be in the game.

This is the best approximation of my answer. My answer is that any civilization, which at certain point in time created a decent state, a wonder, a world known leader or discovery should be in the game.

The game should be such, that only some civs should appear at 4000 BC. Others should appear later, and miss the fun of building Pyramids (e.g. Germans). Some should be generated by secession (e.g. Americans or Barzillians). Some should be eliminated by war. Some should become eliminated by war and re-create theirselves by uprising. Some should be culturally assimilated.

Such views make me
1) To defend Mali as civilisation (otherwise what will we have in Africa?) and 2) To defend military rebellion and secession and 3) To defend some civs appearing after 4000 BC.

That should be fun.

[Modo44]

Re: Re: Does Mali Deserve To Be In Civ IV?

Originally posted by Yarco_TW
The game should be such, that only some civs should appear at 4000 BC. Others should appear later, and miss the fun of building Pyramids (e.g. Germans). Some should be generated by secession (e.g. Americans or Barzillians). Some should be eliminated by war. Some should become eliminated by war and re-create theirselves by uprising. Some should be culturally assimilated.

Unless the game does this already (it probably does not), I smell the basis of a wonderful mod.

[Yarco_TW]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Look, Civs are picked to be representative of the world's cultures. No one can argue that Africa has it's own culture. Mali stands as a good representative for Africans, as it was a powerful, wealthy state that enjoyed great respect from its contemporaries. I see little difference between Mali and other Civs that have been included in the past, [...]

This is 100% true. Mali has its own culture, and the fact that the civ is currently just a poor country is not a reason for removing it. Babylonians, Greeks, Celts, Aztecs, Incas, Iroquois, Zulu, Carthaginians, Hittites do not exist as great, or do not exist at all by now.

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
[...] other Civs that have been included in the past, such as the Aztecs, Incas, Iroquois, etc. [...]

Honestly, I do not see any reason for Iroquois being in Civ 3. Issue 1 - they did not have a state (were tribal). Incas, Mali, even Zulu did have a state. Issue 2 - they did not have significant achievements on their own. Incas had road system, terrasing, and Sacsawayman, which are wonders (although not in Civ3). But what about Iroquois? Issue 4 - their population was 20 000. Incas had 4 million, Mali also had more than 20 000. In addition to that Iroquois waged beaver wars, and eliminated neighbour Indians. Issue 5 - historically inacurate UU for Iroquois (they never had mounted soldiers).

Unfortunately, Sioux and Iroquois should be barbarians in this game (no offense to Amerindians, but if Iroquois are in, then Ukrainians should be in, as well as Crimea Tatars).

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

And I certainly think it's much more suitable than the Zulus.

Suitability should be supported by
1) Presence of state. Mali existed for longer period, so +1 to Mali.
2) Importance of state. Mali was more important than Zulu for longer period. +1 to Mali
3) Presence of really unique UU. I do not know good one for Mali. +2 for Zulu with their Impi.
4) Presence of wonders. Bantu of South Africa created Zimbabwe. Not Zulu wonder, but close to the point. No major wonder for Mali. +1 to Zulu.
5) major power in respective area. +0, as both were important in their areas. If you include Mali, please do not forget Samori as a leader.
6) Leaders available +0, both had a bunch of decent leaders.
7) Discoveries made +0, none made important discoveries.

Therefore, Zulu should also be in.

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
[...] Mali stands as a good representative for Africans [...]

I have nothing against seeing Aksum (Ethiopia), Zulu, Yoruba (Nigeria), and Mali all representing African nations.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by ArchdukeNewell


You just don't get it, do you? You're just so infatuated with the historical underdogs that you think they ought to supplant everyone else. You're so desperate that people recognize Mali and the Chola and whoever else that you throw mainstream civ under the bus! Let's see Mali's Pyramids or Hanging Gardens or Great Wall!

I bet you'd throw out Rome to put in the Dahomey!

You haven't a clue who the Chola were, have you ?

A stunning example of what Alexander Pope wrote about- if a little learning is a dangerous thing, you must feel constantly imperilled.

Here's some more Africa in your eye.

[AeonOfTime]

@MollyBloom: Here's some more Africa in your eye

I admire your perseverance! ArchdukeNewell does not really deserve it Thanks a lot for all the info... I have come to know the mali a lot better, and I must say that I look forward to meeting them in the game!

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by AeonOfTime

I admire your perseverance!

It's easy when you have a love for African art and history. The game is called 'Civilization' after all, not 'my favourite civilizations' or 'mainly Western civilizations'.


That being the case I see no reason not to include any culture or state in Africa that could be defined as a civilization- from the ancient kingdom of Ghana, or Axumite Ethiopia, the Saadian sultanate in Morocco, the Fatimids in Egypt, to the Karanga or Mwanamutapa Empire (where modern day Zimbabwe is today).

The savannah states declined partly because of direct Western trade contacts with the West African states such as Benin and Oyo- and also of course thanks to al Mansour and his use of firearms against the feudal levies of Songhai, Gao and Djenne.

Visitors to Benin were very impressed:

" The Kingdom of Beny is about eighty leagues long and forty wide; it is usually at war with its neighbours and takes many captives, whom we buy at twelve or fifteen brass bracelets each, or for copper braceletes which they prize more."

Duarte Pacheco Pereira from his work: 'Esmeraldo de Situ Orbis', written 1505-1508

G. B. Ramusio's 'Navigazioni e Viaggi', published 1550:

" The kings are worshipped by their subjects, who believe that they come from heaven, and speak of them always with great reverence, at a distance and on bended knees. Great ceremony surrounds them and many of these kings never allow themselves to be seen eating, so as not to destroy the belief of their subjects that they can live without food.'

A description of the royal palace in Benin (destroyed by fire in 1897):

"The king's court is square, and stands at the right hand side when entering the town by the gate of Gotton (Ughoton), and is certainly as large as teh town of Haarlem, and entirely surrounded by a special wall, like that which encircles the town. It is divided into many magnificent palaces, houses, and apartments of the courtiers, and comprises beautiful andlong square galleries, about a slarge as the Exchange at Amsterdam, but one larger than another, resting on wooden pillars, from top to bottom covered with cast copper, on which are engraved the picture sof their war exploits and battles, and are kept very clean.

Most palaces and houses of the king are covered with palm leaves instead of square pieces of wood, and every roof is deciorated with a small turret ending in a point, on which birds are standing, birds cast in copper with outspread wings, cleverly made after living models."

Olfert Dapper, Description de l'Afrique, contenant les noms, la situation & les confins de toutes ses parties (Amsterdam: Wolfgang, Waesberge, Boom & van Someren, 1686

and finally from David van Nyandael:

" As one comes about another half mile from the mouth, then one sees islands which are a half hour's distance from one another. On one of these the Portuguese have built a lodge and a church, at a town called Warri, which is independent and also has a free king who is not under the king of Great Benin, but is his neighbour and ally, although the king of Benin has greater honor than him or anyone else. He is the greatest king in the world, at least in the Guinea world. [??] His territory is known to extend 100 miles outside. When there is nothing outside, then [??] with much to tell. [mits hy sig inbeeld, de grooste koning der wereld te syn, ten minsten van de Guinese wereld, welke ontrent honderd mylen buiten syn land aen hem is bekend; want het geen daer buiten is, daer van fal hy, door onkunde, miet veel na vertellen.] "

01 09 1702

http://www.diafrica.org/nigeriaop/kenny/DH07E.htm

[Datajack Franit]

And I thought internet was just a huge porno library

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Datajack Franit
And I thought internet was just a huge educational library.

Historical naughtiness, yum yum.

Khajuraho sculpture, Sigiriya frescoes, Pompeiian mystery villas.

http://www.saadhu.com/sigiriya/

[ArchdukeNewell]

Originally posted by molly bloom

You haven't a clue who the Chola were, have you ?

To the contrary, I know exactly who the Chola were, and that's why I don't believe that they belong in Civ4!

We already have India!!! Would you like an extra India? Would you like all the Indian civilizations that ever existed?

Oh that's right, I forgot. Yes, you would.

[ArchdukeNewell]

Originally posted by molly bloom

It's easy when you have a love for African art and history. The game is called 'Civilization' after all, not 'my favourite civilizations' or 'mainly Western civilizations'.

That being the case I see no reason not to include any culture or state in Africa that could be defined as a civilization- from the ancient kingdom of Ghana, or Axumite Ethiopia, the Saadian sultanate in Morocco, the Fatimids in Egypt, to the Karanga or Mwanamutapa Empire (where modern day Zimbabwe is today).

Well, you seem to be playing "My Favorite Civilizations."

"Yeah let's put all these crappy civs in the game and take out all the big influential ones!"

Fatimids in Egypt? I was under the impression that Egypt wasn't in Africa!

Molly Bloom's Civ List:
Mali
Songhai
Ghana
Benin
Ethiopia
Dahomey
Mwanamutapa
Chola
Guptas
Maurya
Sassanids
Bantu
the Tuaregs
Khmer
Dai Viet
Fatimid Egypt (in Asia, of course)
Bactria
the Minoans (token European civ)

We only get 18 civs in the game! I don't want to see any of them wasted on the freaking Mwanamutapa!

Do you really think you're not biased towards underdog civs? Seriously?

[Alexander I]

This thread is turning out to be just as bad as my old thread.

Molly Bloom, you ought to cool down and stop being so antagonistic!

ArchdukeNewell, you also should chill out and stop being so reactionary!

This pointless arguing is just filling up space where people could actually make useful and reasonable comments.

[Yarco_TW]

Originally posted by Alexander01
This thread is turning out to be just as bad as my old thread.

Molly Bloom, you ought to cool down and stop being so antagonistic!

ArchdukeNewell, you also should chill out and stop being so reactionary!

This pointless arguing is just filling up space where people could actually make useful and reasonable comments.

While I agree to start peace negotiations, I still need a proof of Mali being more Barbarian than Polynesians, Iroquois and Celts.

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Yarco_TW

While I agree to start peace negotiations, I still need a proof of Mali being more Barbarian than Polynesians, Iroquois and Celts.

Why? I don't think the Polynesians, Iroquois, or Celts belong either.