Does Mali Deserve To Be In Civ IV?

[Xorbon]

Well, congatulations on being the first to give that answer.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by SpencerH
Africa? No way. Its just east of Java (like Krakatoa).

Ooohhhhh, hot lava, oooohhh, hot lava....

[Harovan]

Ummm, somebody mentioned two pages ago, that this thread is pure spam. Reading the last page, what more proof does it take?

And before any of you smartbutts complains, yes, this post is spam too.

[Boris Godunov]

This reminds me of the inane debate from Civ 3 over the Iroquois.

Look, Civs are picked to be representative of the world's cultures. No one can argue that Africa has it's own culture. Mali stands as a good representative for Africans, as it was a powerful, wealthy state that enjoyed great respect from its contemporaries. I see little difference between Mali and other Civs that have been included in the past, such as the Aztecs, Incas, Iroquois, etc. And I certainly think it's much more suitable than the Zulus.

[Vince278]

Originally posted by vStauffenberg
M-A-L-I --- LET-MALI-IN!!! M-A-L-I ---- LET-MALI-IN!!!!

Just what is it you are trying to say?
[ducking]

[vStauffenberg]

Originally posted by Vince278


Just what is it you are trying to say?
[ducking]

i wanted to ... i don't know

[AeonOfTime]

On thing is certain, though: you have depleted your quota of angry emoticons for at least four months

[Vince278]

There's a quota?

[AeonOfTime]

Sure, your forum rank * 50 per month with a max. of total per month /4 per emoticon type. vStauffenberg is Settler, so 1 * 50 = 50 emoticons per month and 50/4 emoticons of type 'angry' = 12.

If you exceed your quota, any additional emoticons are replaced by the special 'abuse' emoticon.

Nah, just kidding

[Vince278]

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
No one can argue that Africa has it's own culture.

They can argue, but they'd be wrong.


Poor old David Hume:

(On African societies)

"No ingenious manufacture amongst them, no arts, no sciences."

and Thomas Jefferson:

" Misery is often the parent of the most affecting touches in poetry. Among the blacks is the misery enough, God knows, but no poetry. Love is the peculiar oestrum of the poet. Their love is ardent, but it kindles the senses only, not the imagination. Religion, indeed, has a Phyllis Wheatley, but it could not produce a poet. The compositions published under name are below the dignity of criticism. "


Oh how things change:

Across the continent, artifacts are looted from museums, from universities and straight from the ground. Most of the objects-ancient terracotta and stone figures, brass and bronze sculptures, wooden grave markers, masks and doors-end up in the U.S. and Europe, where collectors prize such items as the 16th century Benin bronze castings whose technical finesse rivals works produced by Europeans of the same era. Among the most sought-after items are figurines from Kawu, with their distinctive triangular eyes and abstracted features, remnants of the Nok culture that flourished in central Nigeria from 500 B.C. to A.D. 200.

http://www.time.com/time/pacific/magazine/20010806/art.html

There is no record of David Hume ever having visited Africa, as far as I can tell.

[ArchdukeNewell]

Terra cotta this time, eh?

Hmm...


Nope, nope. Still not a wonder of the world.

[Vince278]

Perhaps Mali didn't want to waste its time by piling rocks into pyramid shapes like Egypt.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by ArchdukeNewell
Terra cotta this time, eh?

Hmm...


Nope, nope. Still not a wonder of the world.

Who claimed it was ? Not me.


It's pretty ignorant to keep insisting that one work of sculpture or pottery seen in isolation and out of context 'proves' that sub-Saharan societies haven't produced wonders of the world, or that a whole school of sculpture or metal casters couldn't be a wonder of the world especially in the light of some of the wonders Civilization has utilised in its games.


To produce highly sophisticated advanced items such as this requires not only skill and intelligence but also an advanced organised society to appreciate them- supply meeting demand.

Here's what a non-African has to say about Ife terra cottas and bronzes:

"... sophisticated art requiring not merely modelling skill but also a considerable degree of technical expertise, most particularly in the casting of bronzes."

Of course the first Europeans to visit the coast of West Africa had a greater appreciation of the artistry and ingenuity of the sculptors, potters and casters- they commissioned prestige objects such as ivory salt cellars for the aristocracy and monarchs of Renaissance Europe.

And of course the British looted the Benin bronzes and now display them in the British Museum.

[ArchdukeNewell]

Originally posted by molly bloom
It's pretty ignorant to keep insisting that one work of sculpture or pottery seen in isolation and out of context 'proves' that sub-Saharan societies haven't produced wonders of the world, or that a whole school of sculpture or metal casters couldn't be a wonder of the world especially in the light of some of the wonders Civilization has utilised in its games.

To produce highly sophisticated advanced items such as this requires not only skill and intelligence but also an advanced organised society to appreciate them- supply meeting demand.

You just don't get it, do you? You're just so infatuated with the historical underdogs that you think they ought to supplant everyone else. You're so desperate that people recognize Mali and the Chola and whoever else that you throw mainstream civ under the bus! Let's see Mali's Pyramids or Hanging Gardens or Great Wall!

I bet you'd throw out Rome to put in the Dahomey!