Does Mali Deserve To Be In Civ IV?

[Boris Godunov]

Perhaps mb wouldn't be so "antagonistic" if the archduck wasn't engaging in blatant strawmen.

Originally posted by ArchdukeNewell
We only get 18 civs in the game! I don't want to see any of them wasted on the freaking Mwanamutapa!

molly wasn't asserting all the civs he listed should be in the game, supplanting others. He just said that he believed they were also worthy of being in the game.

Why not actually ask him to post his list of civs he wants in the game, rather than making one up for him so you can engage in a strawman attack on it?

[Imran Siddiqui]

ArchdukeNewell, engaging in strawmen? Say it isn't so, Boris!

Really, in his scorched earth campaign against the Mali inclusion he has stumbled upon strawman after strawman because has no argument left. We showed to him the great University in Timbuktu, but that wasn't enough of a wonder for him (even though I'm sure he has no problem with the Library at Alexandria).

[Kc7mxo]

i dont believe that either newell or alexander's point was that mali wasn't an interesting civilization with history and cultural influence. i believe the point was that there are other civilizations with more interesting and more cultural influence who are being left out.

There really isn't any argument against saying that the Ottoman Empire had a much larger effect on the world than Mali did. If there were more civilization slots available, then I dont see that anyone would have a problem with their inclusion.

The issue is that there is limited seats on the bus, and some folks paid more for their ticket than others did.

[Xorbon]

Originally posted by Kc7mxo
If there were more civilization slots available, then I dont see that anyone would have a problem with their inclusion.

Well, 6 people have voted "No, mali doesn't belong in the game at all" so far. So, Mali's inclusion in a hypothetical larger list doesn't seem to be unanimously supported.

[GePap]

Mali most certainly deserves to be in. Hell, so does Khmer, Zimbabwe, and the Polynesians.

Why have the Vikings and Hittites and both Spain AND portugal and not these four?

Mali is far more distinct from any of the other civs in the game than the Dutch are from the French, from the English, from the Germans.

And Mali most certainly far more worthy to be in the game than the Zulu. Again, the game is civlization- meaning CITIES. No zulu "cities" (did they even really have cities?) can hold a candle to Timbuktu, a world famous city.

I would have no problem paring down the number of Europeans significantly and tyring to weed out near duplicates.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Alexander01

Molly Bloom, you ought to cool down and stop being so antagonistic!

Dear me, I think you have the wrong person in mind.

"Yeah let's put all these crappy civs in the game and take out all the big influential ones!"

Fatimids in Egypt? I was under the impression that Egypt wasn't in Africa!

No dear, it still is.

We only get 18 civs in the game! I don't want to see any of them wasted on the freaking Mwanamutapa!

We already have India!!! Would you like an extra India? Would you like all the Indian civilizations that ever existed?

Oh that's right, I forgot. Yes, you would.

You just don't get it, do you? You're just so infatuated with the historical underdogs that you think they ought to supplant everyone else. You're so desperate that people recognize Mali and the Chola and whoever else that you throw mainstream civ under the bus! Let's see Mali's Pyramids or Hanging Gardens or Great Wall!

I bet you'd throw out Rome to put in the Dahomey!

Now who can that person possibly be ?

Obviously someone who shopped at The Spleen Venting Surplus Store recently.



Now in comparison with the tawdry attempts at misrepresentation and feeble sarcasm displayed by ArchDuke I've provided several reasons why Mali should be in, based not just on my own personal idiosyncrasies and idle whims, but on sound historical research and with reference to history books, internet sites, Unesco World heritage, Arab and European visitors and historians, and copious illustrations of the art and architecture of Mali, Benin, Ife and Songhai.


In response we've seen you claim that the Sankore Mosque and the Friday mosque in Djenne were 'mud huts' because they happened to be partly constructed of clay (a local material). Thus rendering them ineligible for 'wonder' status.

Based on that reductive slender criterion, we can safely say goodbye to any Mesopotamian ziggurats (clay and straw bricks).

The hypostyle and palace at Persepolis ? Too bad they used flammable wood as well as stone.

Scandinavian stave churches ? Japanese pavilions in Kyoto ? Chinese temples in Chang'an ?

All a bunch of old sticks.


As for the world famous university of Timbuktu, apparently Arch Duke didn't think that was of any account either.

Why?

Well, who could fathom those deep mysterious depths.

Not I.

Long dismissed by the Western art establishment as primitive and of interest only to ethnographers and anthropologists, African art has slowly come to be valued for its intrinsic beauty and artistic merit. A flurry of activity at major museums across Europe is evidence of its enhanced stature. After nearly 30 years in "temporary" accommodations, the British Museum's African collection returned triumphantly this spring to a new setting at the museum's London headquarters. The Sainsbury African Galleries can accommodate only 600 of the museum's inventory of more than 200,000 African objects, but some of these have been in the collection since the museum's founding in 1753, and the new showcase marks the first time they have enjoyed such prominence.

"An African should feel proud that his art, his heritage is being displayed in the Louvre," says Nureldin Satti, a senior official with the United Nations' cultural organization, unesco, in Nairobi and an enthusiast for the ancient arts of his own country, Sudan. "It helps raise awareness of the inventiveness and creativity of African man — that he is not the savage that people think."

Three-quarters of Mali's archaeological sites, including most of the graves built into the cliffs along the World Heritage-listed Bandiagara escarpment, have been looted. During the past decade thieves in Niger have damaged more than 90% of all known Bura sites, where 1,500-year-old terra-cotta figures have been found.

Ancient my Africa:

Among the Western Sudan's earliest forms of artistic expression are depictions of couples in terracotta and cast-alloy copper from Mali's Inland Niger Delta. These works have been related to the ancient urban center of Djenne-Jeno, three kilometers southwest of the contemporary city of Djenne. Archaeologists have determined that the site was settled about 250 B.C. and that it was continuously occupied by an ethnically diverse population for more than a millennium before its abandonment about A.D. 1500. It has been suggested that Djenne-Jeno's decline may have been related to the arrival of Islam and that a new urban settlement purged of traditional religious practices was established at Djenne once the community's leadership converted.

Still someone values the civilization and culture of West and North West Africa:

Yoruba, Ife, Nigeria
12th-15th Cenury
ZInc, Brass
31 x 9.5 cm
The National Commission for Museums and Monuments
Ife, Nigeria

from the Stolen Treasures Index.

I'm loving this. I could get quite a feel for it.

Even more Africa in your eye:

[AeonOfTime]

@Alexander01: This pointless arguing is just filling up space where people could actually make useful and reasonable comments

I don't think the Polynesians, Iroquois, or Celts belong either

Contradiction in terms AND definitely not going to let this thread rest in peace

[Alexander I]

I believe you are mistaken. The other Mali thread is the one that's supposed to die.

This is its pitiful successor.

[Xorbon]

Originally posted by Alexander01
I believe you are mistaken. The other Mali thread is the one that's supposed to die.

This is its pitiful successor.

Pitiful? Hey! That hurts!

(Nah, not really )

The purpose of this thread is different than the other. The other thread was apparently started to antagonize in order to spark debate on the inclusion of Mali. This thread is centered around the poll in order to see what number of people stand on each side of the issue.

And speaking of the poll, it looks like people are pretty evenly divided on the issue.

[AeonOfTime]

@Alexander01: I believe you are mistaken. The other Mali thread is the one that's supposed to die. This is its pitiful successor.

Hell, most of the current threads don't really have any real purpose anymore with all the bashing going on. I wonder what's going to happen during the next four months while we all wait for Civ4 - without any new info, we don't have that much to say about it except getting stuck on trivial matters like whether Civ X really deserves to be in the game.

IMHO we are making mountains out of the small details we know about the game, and we're not really getting anywhere. I know it's nice to chat about what Civ4 can and cannot be, and like to contribute my opinion but it's getting really tiresome. But maybe that's just me...

@Xorbon: And speaking of the poll, it looks like people are pretty evenly divided on the issue.

Which is a nice enough info, but only represents the posters here in the Civ4 forum, and I guess most of of the 'mainstream' players that will buy and play civ will not give any second thought as to whether the mali ought to be destroyed (or rather they will, but probably only while playing the game and not for the same reasons).

When I mentioned the mali being in the game to people around me with enough interest to play the game, they all said that they are a pretty cool choice. When I mentioned that there was quite a debate going on around their worthiness to be included at all and explained why, the general consensus was that they liked the image the mali give very much, that a Civ like the mali adds some mystery and a welcome touch of romance to game.

Of course you can always argue that 'mainstream' people don't have all the background they need to forge a good opinion on the matter, but even so their view counts as much as mine or yours. When I try to explain this to someone like my mother who doesn't play video games at all, she can't understand how someone can put so much weight on such a pitiful detail. She might also say something nasty like I should get a life as well as all game addicts 'out there'

Conclusion: go ahead and bash some more, as I don't see any solution to the mali problem. There are those who like them, those who don't and even those who absolutely loathe their very being - and both sides have dug their trenches deep enough to last for years. Which makes me wonder why I am even writing this... maybe because I like you fools too much

[Xorbon]

AeonOfTime: You're exactly right. I think it's only us (the ones obsessed with the game ) who care about minor issues like this. I think the 'casual' Civ gamer probably doesn't care what civs make the game.

Originally, I thought it was cool that Mali was in the game. But then I saw people bashing Mali, and I decided I couldn't stand idly by and watch.

[Imran Siddiqui]

In the end the question to ask is do we want a game based on World Civilizations, or a game based on Western prejudices of civilizations. I pick the former. Mali is very worthy choice. Different from the rest of the civs in culture and a very strong trading based civ. It is not only worthy but representative of the continent it is on.

[Kc7mxo]

In the end the question to ask is do we want a game based on World Civilizations, or a game based on Western prejudices of civilizations. I pick the former. Mali is very worthy choice. Different from the rest of the civs in culture and a very strong trading based civ. It is not only worthy but representative of the continent it is on.

What would mali's unique unit be?

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
In the end the question to ask is do we want a game based on World Civilizations, or a game based on Western prejudices of civilizations. I pick the former. Mali is very worthy choice. Different from the rest of the civs in culture and a very strong trading based civ. It is not only worthy but representative of the continent it is on.

Western prejudices of civs? I could just as easily accuse you of eastern prejudices of civs, but I haven't! Your thinly veiled insults are not warmly welcomed.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Alexander01
I could just as easily accuse you of eastern prejudices of civs,

You could, but it wouldn't make much sense, as Mali isn't even an "eastern" civ. Also, I don't seem to recall him advocating removal of the Western civs already in the game (of which, you must admit, there is an overwhelming preponderance).