"Civilization IV"... Confirmed?

[notyoueither]

Actually, I think the only cheat is that the AI knows the whole map, fog or no. That is the only cheat that Soren had to give to it to make it able to give the human a game. Unfortunately, it turned into a weakness and a player can lure AI units first towards one open city then back towards another, all the while gaining time to gather forces or to pick off invasion stacks.

They do not gang bang the human simply because he or she is the odd biological unit out. They do not get any other advantages except those controlled by the player who starts the game in the form of the handicap which can go for the human or the AI depending on difficulty level.

As far as I know, there are very few games that give the AI no 'boosts'. A remarkable one was Warlords, where the AI got nothing the human did not.

I was hoping Toby would elaborate more on the cheating on technology and any other cheats he might have detected that nobody else here on Poly or elsewhere had found.

[Toby Rowe]

Hi Notyoueither/Joseph,

Funny how I think of annoyances and cheats during the game, but find it difficult to list them later online.

If you want I'll start to write down each AI cheat whilst playing, but it seems most are aware of them except new players to Civ 3 (buy Civ 2 you lads and lassies!!- It cheats at a bearable level )

Perhaps a simple list of all known cheats posted as a sticky by the board owners would be good- I can then make notes whilst playing, and add if I see a glaring ommission.

I too noticed the inability of the AI to see the FoW, hence my simple dictate to never ever give my territory map away in the earliest stages, as give it to one, gives it to all 16, and not least as you will end up with a patchwork quilt of a map for the last settled area's, if not more of the map, quite apart from revealing your nations weakly defended cities (most at that point).

(I agree about the method of cheating [Joseph] states the AI uses on this clearly)

My summary of Civ 3 would be thus:

"The programmers of Civ 3 looked at all the AI cheats in Civ 2, then removed all notifications given to the player that it was doing so. They then thought of as many AI cheats as they could that weren't so obvious and coded them in, thus producing a shortened development cycle, alas they were obvious, although some are more subtle than others, but the entire game is based upon cheating, not a decent AI"

Once I get the AI rush on a city- if I have railways I simply reload and bung another two regiments into the city- result, no rush or a different outcome, my counter to the game is to cheat as much as the AI does, the result is a far less satisfying game than it should have been. The AI in Civ 2 was far better than Civ 3, especially viewing both release years.

Us all talking about useful features introduced in Civ 2 but binned in Civ 3 should alone be enough to annoy any Civ player, and convince me Civ 3 was about making money for a company, not getting a satisfied, loyal customer base.

Toby!!

[notyoueither]

There is no list, because there are no cheats other than the map knowledge.

About that, they don't have to explore to know what is there. The blanket and FoW do not exist for them. That is the only cheat.

I would say it is those who are new to the game, or the forums at least, who don't know this.

[Toby Rowe]

Mate,

I beg to differ.

You can see the AI exploring, getting the map of your territory speeds up the process of all the nations exploration as it is instantly given by the recipitent to all others, as the AI demands.

I am always reluctant to give away the locations of any other nations I've encountered for exactly the same reason, the cash offer is tempting, the result is not.

I suggest you start a nation in the editor, give them 10 scouts. follow any warriors you meet, choose the above option or the "give all" info option and see if they follow a logical pattern of exploration YOU would take thereafter, reloading after a set number of turns- it's easy to do.

Despite what you claim, the AI seems not to know the lay of the land until the very first time YOU give your map away, yet the FoW areas unknown by all (including your portion) still seem to remain unknown by all, hence the jostling I witnessed for the last bit of unsettled land just North of my nation in my current game. (no less than 9 of 12 had a spearman and settler trying to reach the two remaining spots).

By tedious but skillful joggling I managed to block all, considering the AI instantly grants territorial access to any AI nation that requests it- except you of course. (another AI cheat).

If you think there isn't a need for that post, I suggest you actually play the game again rather than sniping at the side-lines, however, I don't think there is a huge need for it either- I'm so pissed off with this version, I'm really looking forward to Civ 4, minus cheating, except for cheats that must happen to make the AI work lest they seek to create an ESA/NASA robot in a game, in which case they will be the first.

Finally, stop your arrogant attittude towards new players, as I explained in a previous post I was probably playing the game whilst restoring houses your nappies were being changed in, once built.

I've played Civ and Civ 2 endlessly, now Civ 3. I'm annoyed with Civ 3 as I've never seen AI cheating taken to such a level before, I expected less cheating in Civ 3 as that was the logical step for the developer to look at, instead they increased cheating, increased pollution and increased corruption- basically anything to make your experience of a game a frustration, rather than a challenging pleasure.

If I didn't know better, I would have sworn it was made by a German developer, who collectively went from producing the best to the worst strategy games in the world, due to fondness of creating an AI that was hard to beat and forgetting we want fun as well, still, German strategy games have an average AI well above Civ 3, the games are generally boring though.


Toby

[notyoueither]

Toby, son, grab a grip.

You say that only new players would be unaware of the cheats. I say that I think only new players would think they are there. Now you are old enough to have seen me in nappies. Who here has the arrogance? If your profile is accurate, you have a bit of pooh on your face ATM.

I am still waiting for the list of cheats other than the map. and puzzeling over this:

really looking forward to Civ 4, minus cheating, except for cheats that must happen to make the AI work lest they seek to create an ESA/NASA robot in a game, in which case they will be the first.

So which is it? Cheats are good for the game, or not?

[Maquiladora]

Doesnt the AI know the future locations of resources too? Or did they ever fix that?

[Toby Rowe]

"Wishyouweren'there"

Dunno mate what your age is, but you seem to have a penchant for a argument with me.

I'm 42, I dislike people people making posts who have the arrogance to call a human a "newbie".

5 stars or none beside your name, it is the quality of a post that matters, UNLESS it is a new poster, in which case, asking ANYTHING about a game is fine, however stupid it may seem to you.

I dislike arrogantant posters, we are all equal at the end of of the day, and if I've played a game for 10 years or 10 hours it matters little if I think I can help. whether or not my help actually did help doesn't matter, at least I tried to help, unlike you.

Toby

Swift edit, in order to produce an ESA/NASA level of AI, all current games would make all redundant, that is why some work on games and some work at ESA and NASA.
The way gaming is going there will soon be no SP games at all, as programming an environ for MP requires little AI input, whilst SP does, along with a thinking AI.

Just had a chuckle when I noticed we both subscribed to this board at about the same time, also noticed I went from a "prince" back to a "warlord", seems this Greek board is with you on the value of "stars" and the attitude you feel you can have towards others.

I will always try to help- will you?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Toby Rowe
"Wishyouweren'there"

Dunno mate what your age is, but you seem to have a penchant for a argument with me.

I'm 42, I dislike people people making posts who have the arrogance to call a human a "newbie".

Then why did you do it?

5 stars or none beside your name, it is the quality of a post that matters, UNLESS it is a new poster, in which case, asking ANYTHING about a game is fine, however stupid it may seem to you.

I dislike arrogantant posters, we are all equal at the end of of the day, and if I've played a game for 10 years or 10 hours it matters little if I think I can help. whether or not my help actually did help doesn't matter, at least I tried to help, unlike you.

Actually, I am trying to have a discussion that may help all readers come to an understanding of how Civ3 works.

You don't seem to like it.

Swift edit, in order to produce an ENA/NASA level of AI all current games would make all redundant, that is why some work on games and some work at ESA and NASA.
The way gaming is going there will soon be no SP games at all, as programming an environ for MP requires little AI input, whilst SP does, along with a thinking AI.

Well, considering a person well suited to programing AI is the head of development for CIV, I wouldn't worry about that too soon.

Now, do you have a list of AI cheats, or no?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Maquiladora
Doesnt the AI know the future locations of resources too? Or did they ever fix that?

That's part of the map. I doubt it was fixed since knowledge of the map was the one advantage given the AI.

Hense the 'AI settled a useless tundra tile... oops, there's oil there!'

Which turned into, 'I know there has to be something there if the AI was determined to settle a useless area. Let's take it.'

IOW, the advantages of the AI came to become advantages for the human who was patient enough to learn.

[Toby Rowe]

Hi "mate",

Replying in order:


Are you trying to say that you are the head programmer of Civ 4 or what?

If not, your post has the relevant points I replied to in the above post, if you are, it's the same.

Post:

A "Newbie" What does this word mean to you?

You have nothing to help seasoned players like me or new players, except how to make a condesending post.

If I asked you how best to react to a mass invasion you'd likely be arrogant, not helpful- some people want to help others, as it's in their nature, others are idiots and gloat. I'd advise based on experience playing the game, which was when you were in nappies based upon your attitude.

I'd now like to see the "discussion" you proport to already have.

I was right- you did want an arguement, to continue PM me and we can argue alone and spare the rest of the board- I thought your dissection of my post pathetic.

Toby

[notyoueither]

I could help you understand what is going on in Civ3, if you just listened. Better yet, head over to the Strat forum. You can get a lot of help there, but they too would be very interested in the list of cheats that you seem slow to produce.

[Toby Rowe]

Resources:

That flummoxed me as well- the Saltpeter would dry up (pardon the pun) but Saltpeter is actually from human pee (piss), and my Government used to enforce it's collection from us common people (working class) in the UK by law- by threat of death, and the collectors had the same rights as a modern policeman to enter your home in order to collect your pee if you claimed to have none)- Like a permanent 24 hour warrant, but to comply, you left it outside the door and the bloke collected it in the night.

The constant changing of a resources is actually a real headache in Civ 3- rubber is the worst culprit, you take the key city containing it, one or two turns later the enemy is granted a new supply further away.

I really hope that in Civ 4 "Stategic" resources will be exactly that- Strategic: Coal in certain squares, Iron in others, leave them there so we can plan a strategy!!

Toby

[notyoueither]

Of course you have a save or two to support the elastic rubber supply, yes? 'Cause I've never seen that. Has anyone else? Iron and oil, yes, because their disappearance/appearance numbers are fairly high. But rubber?

Still, I agree that the resource system is both a strength and a weakness. I have never been happy with how it has been implemented, and C3C just made it worse, IMO.

[Toby Rowe]

Are you serious?

Play on a huge world, 12-16 nations, once rubber appears whether by your tech level or another, If you have to fight a large nation, capure the supply and a new one will appear soon after- Now you've made me think about it, I might even play another one- I vowed my current game will be my last until Civ 4 arrives.

(I'm now just moaning and contributing nothing about a game that is going to be replaced anyway- so why am I moaning?)

Anyway, I think the massive imbalance between Cavalry verus Infantry during that long period was designed to annoy you, just like having to build factories in order to keep up with the AI, but then suffer the pollution, you needed the Tank so badly, investment and tedious pollution is the only logical course.

I once did a test on the AI tech cheating in Civ 2: I built 8 Islands and surrounded all others with mountains bar mine. I visited all of them, but never disclosed the map, when I could build Nuclear Weapons they were learning how to use Muskets at best.

But at least Civ & Civ 2 were honest in AI cheating- a pop-up box told you so whilst it engaged in it.

Civ 3 pretends it doesn't happen- that is annoying, even more so is the expansion in AI cheating Infogrammes programmed in Civ 3 once the legal battle over ownership of the title was resolved. Anyone know how they managed to win? Was it SMAC that won it?

Toby

[Toby Rowe]

Are you serious?

Play on a huge world, 12-16 nations, once rubber appears whether by your tech level or another, If you have to fight a large nation, capure the supply and a new one will appear soon after- Now you've made me think about it, I might even play another one- I vowed my current game will be my last until Civ 4 arrives.

(I'm now just moaning and contributing nothing about a game that is going to be replaced anyway- so why am I moaning?)

Anyway, I think the massive imbalance between Cavalry verus Infantry during that long period was designed to annoy you, just like having to build factories in order to keep up with the AI, but then suffer the pollution, you needed the Tank so badly, investment and tedious pollution is the only logical course.

I once did a test on the AI tech cheating in Civ 2: I built 8 Islands and surrounded all others with mountains bar mine. I visited all of them, but never disclosed the map, when I could build Nuclear Weapons they were learning how to use Muskets at best.

But at least Civ & Civ 2 were honest in AI cheating- a pop-up box told you so whilst it engaged in it.

Civ 3 pretends it doesn't happen- that is annoying, even more so is the expansion in AI cheating Infogrammes programmed in Civ 3 once the legal battle over ownership of the title was resolved. Anyone know how they managed to win? Was it SMAC that won it?

Toby

Oops, not content with moaning once I had to post it again- Sorry all, that was in error but I can't delete it either