Gathering Storm - correspondence & foreign affairs

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Tiberius
I like this. We could send in the same time with the save a message saying that the price of Construction+Currency has went up to Republic+80 for treating us with disrespect and not trusting us.
Seriously though, it is about time to put a foot in the door with the GS.

I would prefer we keep pretending being "naive builder fools" instead...

Let's send them a message then, explaining we were not sure about if we would discover Currency before anyone else would... and that the price reflected this "uncertainty". Now that things are "certain", we feel that it is fair to increas the price "just a little bit" to Rep+80. And that we are still happy to go with our deal as proposed if they are still interested.

Let's not allow any signs of anger or embarrasment leak out... there is no need. Be friendly, talk about future research cooperation and such... They WILL realize they shot themselves in the foot and they will be much more likely to treat us with more respect next time, even if we keep being totally polite and friendly...

Besides, the fact they underestimate us is OUR great advantage.

And BTW... being here among my dear Legos only, I would like to say something personal regarding this matter, too: "Fvck Gathering Storm!"

[vondrack]

Well, time to teach GS a small lesson...

Whoever plays this turn (#82) shall send a PM to DeepO along with the savegame, possibly putting a note about that PM being sent into the email having the savegame attached.

What about something like this (make sure that we really are the only source of C+C before sending this! - check the F4 screen to confirm both techs are our exclusives at that moment):

Dear DeepO,

Legoland is happy to inform Gathering Storm that we have just discovered the Currency! As we have already been knowing the art of Construction for some time, we are now ready to strike the deal we have been talking about any time now... providing you with Currency and Construction in exchange for Republic and a balance in gold.

We were not 100% sure whether we'd be able to discover Currency before the German team (quite a headstart they had!), but we are proud to inform you we've succeeded! As the price proposed in our recent draft was reduced a little bit due to this "uncertainty", we would now respectfully like to make a very small adjustment reflecting the fact that Gathering Storm would be receiving two technologies no other team posseses at this moment.

Considering the information from your last message, stating ND was not interested in trading for either of Currency/Construction with you, we'd like to offer you the following trade agreement - it is basically the previous proposal, only slightly adjusted for the latest developments (text already made into a trade agreement draft):

1) Legoland agrees to provide Currency & Construction to GS one turn before GS provides Republic to Legoland. Legoland agrees to grant GS rights to resell/trade/gift Currency & Construction to Vox Controli. Legoland also agrees to not attempt to sell/trade/gift Currency or Construction to Vox Controli for 10 turns. GS agrees to not resell/trade/gift Currency & Construction to any other team for 10 turns. GS also agrees to ensure Vox Controli will not trade Currency or Construction to any other team for at least 10 turns.

2) GS agrees to provide Legoland with Republic no later than on (its) Turn 84. GS agrees to grant Legoland rights to resell/trade/gift Republic to Glory of War. GS also agrees to not attempt to sell/trade/gift Republic to Glory of War for 10 turns. Legoland agrees to not resell/trade/gift Republic to any other team for 10 turns. Legoland also agrees to ensure Glory of War will not trade Republic to any other team for at least 10 turns.

3) To offset the difference in research costs between Currency+Construction and Republic (considering the effective trading potential of the resale rights provided by both teams equal), GS agrees to pay Legoland a balance payment of 80 gold, payable on the same turn as the transfer of Republic happens.

We would appreciate if you post this proposal in your private forum for discussion and let us know whether your team is interested in pursuing the deal or not. As the ingame "offer" we made on this very turn (to help you feel more comfortable and safe about the deal), suggests, we are ready to provide "our" technologies any time now.

With the sincerest regards,
redstar1 of Legoland

And we shall see...

[vondrack]

Message to DeepO sent, also included in the savegame email to Sir Ralph and Nathan Barclay.

[vondrack]

Ahhh.... they seem to respond a bit quicker now...

Thanks Vondrack,

I'll post it on our forum (actually, Sir Ralph already did, but I'll make it into an official poll). You discovering Currency first does change the situation a little... we'll have to check how many teams have the two technologies to set a price.

Maybe it's good if this deal goes through anyhow, even if not formally ratified. I mean, we can keep discussing details, but right now the important things are getting time-pressed: next turn will be your turn 83, AFAIK... We can settle the price discussion (which I'm quite certain is not resolved on our side yet, 80 gold is a lot in this world, we would happily sell republic to the last one for that price) later.

I'm looking forward to our chat tomorrow, but will probably get back to you before that time too.

kind regards,
DeepO

And my response:

Hello, DeepO!

This is a bit off-record... and feel free to check it with other teams, of course... but we are the only team having Construction (just as we are the only team having Currency ATM). I checked the F4 screen to make sure both Currency and Construction were our exclusives before sending our most recent offer to you. And unless our intel is completely wrong, no other team is close to having Construction... most probably none is actually even researching it.

I understand the time is of importance, but I fear most of my fellow Legos will prefer having our treaty signed (i.e. the balance in gold settled) before actually exchanging technologies. We seem to like doing things kinda "by the book"... I have recently had a tough time explaining why I went a bit ahead, providing one of our trading partners with something that was not actually 100% backed by a signed treaty yet... it ended well for me, the treaty was ratified ex-post, but the lesson was obvious.

Best Regards,
vondrack, The President of Legoland

Do we start placing bets?

[Tiberius]

This is going well. However, if they don't accept the deal until the chat, I have the following proposal to accelerate the ratification of the treaty:

-------------------

Pre ratification for the GS Republic deal

The Senate of Legoland gives "free hand" to President Vondrack to negotiate and strike a deal with the GS in the following conditions:

The latest draft we sent to the GS is not negotiable, except for point 3), where Legoland accepts to lower the gold payment to 50 gold, payable by the GS not later than 5 turns after the turn when the transfer of Republic happens.

-------------------

1. Anyone: feel free to rephrase it if you have something to add or can write if better
2. As for the last phrase, maybe they just don't have the money now, so why lose the deal because of this.
3. Post your approval for this pre-ratification document, so that we could make the exchange with the GS next turn (should they accept it).

Unless somebody changes it significantly, I approve the above document.

[vondrack]

Guys, rest assured the deal will get through...

More correspondence with Gathering Storm:

Hi Vondrack

We just checked if other teams had it (before I saw this message, actually), and you are right, nobody has it. This does change things a little, even if next turn currency will be discovered by ND (their cost just went down, and they have been working on it for quite some time, presumably). I guess this is what redstar1 meant previously that some of my assumptions were wrong, I genuinely thought that you were going to get at least one of the techs from Bob. If you see something that is so obviously wrong, please correct me

As to the price: it is currently under discussion. Given this new information, we do not feel it is outrageous (at least not everyone feels that way ), however I think the current feeling is more one of disappointment. We were hoping to reach a more 'friendlier' deal, and were discussing deals with you in which lego-GS deals would be less costly on both sides. But it's easy to forget this is our first real deal, and trust has to be earned, or at least backed up by facts. I'm hopeful it will get accepted without any more negotiating to do.

As to waiting before ratifying: no problem whatsoever, I don't think I would have proposed the same if it was our side that needed to make the first step. We're doing our utmost best to ensure ratification before time constraints become an issue.

Last comment: you being the only one having construction is actually quite good news, any interest in delaying trading it to Bob? It would be easy for us to keep it from Vox for a few turns, until for instance ND has discovered curr and is looking for a tech to research. Any delay on Bob, or any waste in beakers is welcome, the only problem can be that we delay Vox's MT.

See you soon,
DeepO

And my answer... hope you don't mind... but as this is perfectly within the limits we have set to ourselves (plus it almost exactly follows what Tibi proposed in the previous post), I believe it will be best to pose as "truly interested" in "striking a deal making all GS members happy" and drop few gold now... After all, we did teach them the lesson we wanted and whatever we'd get over 50 gold would be just a nice bonus, right? So let's play "good uncle Legos" now...

Dear DeepO,

I am sorry to hear that some of your members feel disappointed by how things have shaped out... We actually thought Gathering Storm would be happy to know it would be guaranteed to enter medieval ages as the second team in the game, second only to us.

It has never been our intention to make a deal you would be unhappy about... we've always been looking for a deal that would make both our teams happy. We truly believed that the deal we originally proposed was a fair one... and it was to our grief it has kept getting further and further from the original idea throughout the last couple of turns, possibly also because we were not sure if our research was fast enough to compensate for the headstart ND had had... and thus did not dare to state some facts clearer. However, if you think some gold or a certain delay set for when the balance payment would be due would make your team happier about the deal and might set an even better basis for our future cooperation, then I believe Legoland will not rigidly oppose slightly adjusting the amount. I'd personally make sure your concerns would be presented in the best possible way in our forum. There would, of course, be a limit we would not feel like crossing, as getting less would lead to our members getting unhappy... but few gold pieces should be worth making your team feel less "cornered" or "under pressure".

As for denying Construction to Bobians... I somehow doubt it would have sounded appealing to our team even few turns ago, as we were and genuinely are doing our best to strike fair deals with all other teams in this game... anyway, it is now no longer easily doable, as they already know we have the technologies. Even if it takes 1-2 turns to sign all the deals, we don't believe it would now be possible to keep denying Construction to them without harming our diplomatic relations with Bobians.

I do believe that at the end of the day, Gathering Storm and Legoland shall sign a deal that will make both our teams happy and looking forward to future cooperation.

With the Best Regards,
vondrack, The President of Legoland

Dunno about you, but I am enjoying this tremendously...

[Tiberius]

Ahhh, I would gladly pay some bucks now to see the GS's forum!! Somebody must receive some feet in his bottom, for his poor negotiations

[vondrack]

Our communication with GS seem to be fluent today...

Vondrack,

Don't read my last message the wrong way, please remember that I'm not a native English speaker, and therefore have fewer expressions to express my, and our feelings. I agree, and it seems the discussion on our board goes the same way, that given this situation, 80 gold is not outlandish, it would normally even be considered a fair price. However, the disappointment comes because it's no 'special' price, while we are seriously considering you as becoming our 'special' friends. But maybe I can explain this better in chat (these 4000 characterr limits on PMs are seriously hampering me )

lowering it a bit would certainly help, but that's not the issue really, we are not in need of cash right now, and lowering it by e.g. 20 gold would be nice, but actually worth less then half a turn of commerce, and thus not really important. Also, there is no problem with giving you the money right away, we will do it as soon as this deal gets ratified. But we were hoping to be able to compensate the difference in a future tech trade, e.g. by lowering the price on MT, instead of needing to do it now. Just as a question of principle really, or as a gesture of good will, because practically it's the same of course, as now we can simply ask for a fair but not that special deal on MT too and everything is solved. We would have liked that special bond between us, though, the sooner the better.

As to delaying construction to Bob: I can understand you would want to keep a fair attitude with all civs, however please keep an eye on world politics. Maybe Lego's goal in this game is to simply sail along, keeping everyone away from its continent, keeping everyone friendly, and hoping that the rest will war so much that eventually Legoland comes out on top, however judging from the current situation that won't be possible. You will have to choose sides, and the sooner you do it, the more advantage you can get. Of course, you don't have to believe me, but Bob will become an issue for both of us (Vox doesn't even enter in the equation, they were already in a position where they would lose a 1 on 1 war with any civ, and their latest adventure only has worsened their position).

For us, it's quite easy to see why we are a target for Bob, not even counting the threats we get from time to time, but really, you're in exactly the same position only delayed a few turns. I would not be surprised if the moment riders and knights appear, you are being confronted with a multi-civ invasion, especially if GS would show too strong for Bob. Keeping them happy will not work, both ND and GoW are opportunistic in nature (which we are not, or Vox would have been slaughtered already), and will not mind declaring war only turns after they got the last good deal from you. And then there is the issue of RP, who more and more becomes the puppetmaster of Bob, they outright manipulate the other two civs, keeping to their own relative isolation, only defending, and meanwhile building up infrastructure. Both ND and GoW are so focused on their own affairs that they don't even seem to notice it.

Given this situation, stalling tech trades would maybe not be the most polite thing to do to Bob, but it will work. Us two isolationists (and builders, because so far our goals have been exactly what you set out to do) will be helped most if we stick together, with Bob a distant second. I admire your straight-forwardness, but I fear you will get cheated on with this attitude. You may think you strike fair deals with nearly all teams, but in reality, some of the teams you had decent trades with, are simply middlemen for the others that didn't want to trade, robbing you of profit. Watch out for Bob, it's all I can say. We only get glimpses of what is going on, but it's nowhere near beautyful.

Poll update: so far a 6-1 vote in favor of it, although most Yes's a bit reluctantly. Normally, it should get ratified, but I'll have to wait for a few more votes

DeepO

As a gesture of good will, we may waive 10 or 20 gold after they ratify it... or not... their "disappointment" will take another dip once they find out we get Mono from Voxes...

I am not going to respond immediately... I think it is okay to wait for the ratified agreement now.

[Tiberius]

Should they have treated us with respect, they would have got a better deal (having to pay probably 50 gold at most and) and a fair and grateful trade partner. I hope they realize this, but blinded by their own feeling of superiority they may not, and are probably blaming us.

Too bad, they seemed to be a good partner. Just like the RPs. I wonder if we can trust anyone in this game, but probably not. Well, maybe the Luxes

[Sharpe]

That being said, DeepO brings up some good points.

ND has been generally hostile to most civs - and has rebuffed all our attempts for trade.

GoW, while friendly enough to us, does appear to be building up cities rapidly (look how fast they colonized Mystery Isle) - and has backstabbed other civs in the past.

RP does seem to like to use diplomatic tricks and are aware that like us (though they don't know it) they need time to settle their large area. In many ways we are already ahead of them in doing that - we just haven't build the temple infrastructure that they have started. They are probably also both counting on using their luxuries hoard and also worrying about keeping their luxuries hoard for the future.

It does also sound like GS is trying to slow down the rate at which we trade techs - whether they want to slow the Bob civs down or us down by that is unclear. But they are right that eventually we will need to choose sides - and our potential treaty with RP may help with that as we don't want to fight an united Bob. If either ND or GoW are stupid enough to be aggressive against us (possible, both are rapidly running out of room), we might be able to pull GS into a coalition against them - and the combination of GS + Lego may
force RP to honour the defensive alliance.

[vondrack]

And this is the happy-end of our prolonged negotiations with Gathering Storm. Gentlemen, I believe we can be proud of ourselves!

First, a brief PM I sent to DeepO this morning:

Hello, DeepO!

Just a quick note to let you know we are sitting on the save now, waiting for your team to decide upon the trade agreement, because - if your ETA on Republic is still Turn 84 - we should be sending you the techs on this very turn.

Our 24-hour window will be over today at 9:00pm GMT. We would appreciate if you either send us the ratified agreement by that time, or let us know we are to proceed without sending the techs this turn (in case the ETA on Republic is now later than Turn 84).

Best regards,
vondrack

And DeepO's response:

Vondrack,

Thanks for waiting on us! Sorry if this all takes time, democracies tend to do it... and to be perfect we should have needed another day. But, no time for that now, so yes, we hereby officialy ratify your last proposal, you can go ahead and proceed with sending the techs. Next turn, you should be in possession of the republic, and 80 gold.

Let's hope this is just the first in a long series of raitifed proposals

See you this evening (I'm leaving now, so for communication in the mean time, contact Zeit or Sir Ralph) in the chat room, 9pm GMT.

Cherio,
DeepO

Just for our convenience, here is the "last proposal" as sent to DeepO yesterday (Mar 29) at 8:23am GMT:

1) Legoland agrees to provide Currency & Construction to GS one turn before GS provides Republic to Legoland. Legoland agrees to grant GS rights to resell/trade/gift Currency & Construction to Vox Controli. Legoland also agrees to not attempt to sell/trade/gift Currency or Construction to Vox Controli for 10 turns. GS agrees to not resell/trade/gift Currency & Construction to any other team for 10 turns. GS also agrees to ensure Vox Controli will not trade Currency or Construction to any other team for at least 10 turns.

2) GS agrees to provide Legoland with Republic no later than on (its) Turn 84. GS agrees to grant Legoland rights to resell/trade/gift Republic to Glory of War. GS also agrees to not attempt to sell/trade/gift Republic to Glory of War for 10 turns. Legoland agrees to not resell/trade/gift Republic to any other team for 10 turns. Legoland also agrees to ensure Glory of War will not trade Republic to any other team for at least 10 turns.

3) To offset the difference in research costs between Currency+Construction and Republic (considering the effective trading potential of the resale rights provided by both teams equal), GS agrees to pay Legoland a balance payment of 80 gold, payable on the same turn as the transfer of Republic happens.

[vondrack]

Ugh... me and redstar1 barely survived the chat with GS yesterday... It was like we were dying from laugh for 80% of the time and being under serious threat of heart attacks for the rest... read the following log for your amusement only, as it contains such a load of total crap, that it would be dangerous to read it otherwise... I will add a couple of my comments at the end.

Session Start: Sun Mar 30 22:15:51 2003
Session Ident: #CoffeeShop
DeepO: okay... I propose that normally, I'll answer for GS, and zeit only as support
zeit: i'll be away from keyboard for some time, hope to be back in some 15 mins.
DeepO: ok
vondrack: ok
DeepO: we don't want to hammer you from two sides
vondrack: I will hammer both of you, if necessary...
DeepO:
DeepO: so first of all the last deal:
DeepO: we're sorry it took so long to get it right
DeepO: i hope you are happy with it
DeepO: (we more or less are)
vondrack: yes, happy - hope you are, too
DeepO: a bit of a misunderstanding realy
vondrack: how come?
DeepO: at first, we polled on the proposal we got from last chat, not realising it was not exactly as you wished for
DeepO: hence the confusion
vondrack: I see
vondrack: the thing with Monotheism, right?
DeepO: yep
DeepO: we should discuss that one later
DeepO: as we should receive it from Vox next turn
vondrack: yeah... we thought about a three-sided deal (us, GS, & Voxes), while you preferred two-sided deals - that is ok
DeepO: I hope you did not get the wrong impression of us, we are happy do have found a possible tech partner here
vondrack: fine, go on
DeepO: 3-sided deals are not possible
DeepO: certainly not with Vox
vondrack: no problem - we are happy to work everything out eventually
DeepO: the are a pain in the ass to deal with on a 1 on 1 deal
DeepO: the same holds true with other civs
DeepO: and quite possibly with us too
vondrack: LoL
DeepO: too many variables
vondrack: exactly
DeepO: so, we have spent the past week, thinking on how we could get rid of Vox
DeepO: (tech-wise, I mean)
DeepO: so we wouldn't be constrained with them anymore
DeepO: the results are only so and so
DeepO: and we were thinking on getting other teams in
DeepO: like eg GoW
DeepO: because you're not the only one keeping relatively good communications with them
DeepO: but still, the risk is too big
DeepO: and we don't think we currently can commit to any 3-sided deal
vondrack: understood
DeepO: OTOH, we need to avoid Bob gets a 3-pact together
DeepO: because otherwise the game will be over
DeepO: and that's closer then you might think
vondrack: oh?
DeepO: I mean the unison of Bob
DeepO: Vox is the reason for it, really
DeepO: don't spill this to anyone, but don't be surprised if they settle on Bob again very soon, again without previous diplo communications
vondrack: why the hell they keep trying? it is futile...
* redstar1 has joined #CoffeeShop
redstar1: hey
DeepO: simply, they know they can't expand North
vondrack: hey, redstar!
DeepO: hi redstar1!
DeepO: hmmm... is there any way to send you a log or so, so we don't have to restate everything?
DeepO: not that there has been a lot going on, but still
redstar1: don't worry about it
redstar1: i'm sort of cooking atm
vondrack: I will send the log to redstar later on, no problem
redstar1: that would be great
DeepO: btw guys, I had troubles with an upset stomach the whole day, don't be surpised if you see my run
DeepO: so on to Vox
DeepO: they need to expand somewhere
DeepO: and if you know the situation, you can't blame them for choosing the least corrupted site
vondrack: true
DeepO: I really think (personal view here, nothing official) that they are going to bring all immortals they can find
DeepO: so that could become interested
DeepO: if Bob unites on this, and starts to invade Vox, we have to respond
DeepO: or we're dead too
DeepO: see the problems rising here?
vondrack: tbh, we have very little knowledge about the geography of your landmass, so it may sometimes be difficult to understand motivations for what Voxes do...
redstar1: hmmm if i was bob i wouldn't
redstar1: not until they have consolidated their own positions
DeepO: don't bet on it
DeepO: one of the reasons is that one of the Bobians have no iron
DeepO: and Vox and weselves have sources close to the coast
DeepO: landmass: we have a stretched landmass
vondrack: nice peninsulas like on Legos?
DeepO: where we have all kinds of terrain (good, but also bad), more or less concentrated
DeepO: while Vox has some kind of peninsula, attacked to us by a long, small neck
DeepO: so corruption kills them if they expand further
vondrack: I see
DeepO: you most likely know the city they 'loaned' toLux
vondrack: yes, we know the story
DeepO: that was already the far boundery of their corruption
DeepO: so they know they can't attack us
DeepO: even forgetting that they would get their asses whooped
DeepO: btw, GoW is going to raze the city, for many reasons they say
DeepO: and one reason not public: it's fully corrupted as well
DeepO: that city wouldn't help them one bit
redstar1: of course it is
redstar1: bound to be a nightmare
DeepO: true
DeepO: sorry guys, need to pause my typing a little
DeepO: my paralysed hand is starting to hurt
DeepO: so, how do you have experienced GoW, and Bob so far?
DeepO: I think you should have been not so closely connected as us
DeepO: could be very interesting to compare notes
vondrack: tbh, GoW is one of our best trading partners
vondrack: GhengisFarb has been very honest and always keeping promises
DeepO: GF is cool
DeepO: but don't make him upset, his mood swings...
vondrack: yeah... experienced that
DeepO: what about RP?
vondrack: well...
DeepO: have they tried to manipulate you too?
vondrack: ever talked to Togas personally, DeepO?
DeepO: yeah
DeepO: I'm also ambassador to them
vondrack: it is a lifetime experience, isn't it? )
DeepO: we kind of quit talking a long time ago
DeepO: true
DeepO: this guy is slick
DeepO: very slick
DeepO: but in a friendly way
vondrack: but to be fair - we had a misunderstanding or two, but we are now just fine with them
vondrack: trading a bit, too
DeepO: ah, then you're farther then we are
DeepO: so you would have no interest in delaying, or even blocking trade to bob?
DeepO: because as the 2 best techers of the game, there is a lot of advantage to be gained here
vondrack: not really
vondrack: the only team that has never shown any real interest in trading with us was ND
DeepO: the same here, they only contact you when they need something fast
vondrack: yeah... they are weird (ND)
DeepO: well.. I can understand their position, they are being hammered by 'poly teams
DeepO: so everything becomes an aggresive act
vondrack: we offered them a fine deal on Currency... a win-win one... they refused... politely, but refused... dunno what to think about it
DeepO: interesting
DeepO: the same thing there: we were thinking on offering them to stop research on it
DeepO: (only an idea, we would need your ok, of course)
DeepO: but that won't do any good, I think
DeepO: they won't go for it
DeepO: if you want my idea
DeepO: they want to keep their options open on Bob
vondrack: quite likely, yes
DeepO: does RP researches rep right now?
vondrack: I would seriously doubt it
vondrack: I do not think RP will go for Republic too soon
DeepO: ?
vondrack: if you check the military advisor screen
vondrack: you will find out (perhaps you won't, but we do)
vondrack: that they have the largest military in the whole world
vondrack: they would probably have tough time paying the upkeep for it
DeepO: don't get fooled by the mil advisor
DeepO: our army is smallest
DeepO: not really
DeepO: upkeep is 1 gold per unit
DeepO: if you have only 10, verry good units, you have the biggest power, but pay the lowest upkeep
DeepO: again, don't get fooled by the mil advisor
DeepO: GoW sounds rather weak
DeepO: but they have been saving horsies and cash... and riders are close
vondrack: hmmm... maybe you are right about the military advisor...
DeepO: well, don't believe for a minute we are the weakest around
DeepO: but it's good to see that RP is building forces
DeepO: because we can't check that...
zeit: no one likes to keep is forces idle, maybe they're up to something...
DeepO: thei're boundary is all jungle
vondrack: my impression is they are getting ready for their neighbours' UUs...
DeepO: so to protect, and guard that, they will need swords
DeepO: in jungle, a sword can take on a rider easily
DeepO: RP is not going to attack a Bobian civ soon
DeepO: because they know that the longer they can keep isolated, they will grow stronger
DeepO: you might have some decent land to work, but I bet RP has double that land
DeepO: so, if RP is going to war, it's going to be either with us two, or with Vox
redstar1: you are concerned?
DeepO: yes, more or less
vondrack: hmmm... they (RPers) have posed very friendly towards us... at least so far
DeepO: and they have reasons to believe that GS and Vox will stick together, so Lego is a better target than hoped for
redstar1: perhaps
DeepO: sure, Togas is always friendly... up until the moment they stab you in the back, look at Lux
vondrack: actually, RPers' role in the Lux demise is something we know very little about
DeepO: we know that in the near future, we will get embargoed by Bob
DeepO: okay, RP -Lux first
vondrack: great, thanks
DeepO: RP had NAPs with all three civs, as did the other three
DeepO: Lux and ND's tension had been building long and there were reasons enough to find
zeit: the usual warrior- scout intrusions and the like...
DeepO: so, once they knew ND was going to attack Lux, they warned them of their NAP
DeepO: and asked ND to postpone their attack one more turn, because then they did not need to attack them
DeepO: and they did not want that
DeepO: it was the first manipulation trick we knew
DeepO: they alone decided when the war started and who was involved
DeepO: it even went so far as to push Lux in convincing them that war with ND was going to be impossible to avoid
DeepO: so Lux 'took initiative', and declared war themselves
DeepO: the list continues on their diplo tricks
DeepO: we firmly believe RP is the smartest when it comes to deal with the other teams
DeepO: and thus become the most dangerous team in this game
zeit: they have succesfuly claimed half of Bob, and helped the others making Vox claim "unfair"
zeit: Now that's irony
vondrack: half Bob?!?
zeit: from the jungle and south- maybe not half, but close to
DeepO: more actually
vondrack: wow... now I understand why they build up their military
vondrack: they have lots of land to defend
DeepO: if you believe Aeson's analysis of the map generator, they have more land then above the jungle
zeit: more importantly- they managed to secure themselves a decent and quite land, in which they can settle and develop
zeit: no settlers running around their borders...
vondrack: yeah... like little Voxes
DeepO: that's not the problem really
DeepO: I mean RPs landsize
DeepO: but combine this with their cunning, and you got a winner...
DeepO: no, we know the risks here
DeepO: and we have goals in this game
DeepO: we want to stay alive right until the last minute
DeepO: and RP is a risk to us (and to you, as explained above)
DeepO: this only gets confirmed with the current tech thing
DeepO: where they refuse to trade with us
DeepO: so... you can expect more of this in the future
DeepO: also when they would be first to research a tech
DeepO: and if we're right, they should be a very close 3rd on commerce, right after you
DeepO: so, to counter, we should think of ways to offset this
vondrack: I am not sure about this (RP economy)
DeepO: how so?
vondrack: they do not seem to research very fast
DeepO: no, but they have been saving cash too
zeit: maybe they're not researching...
DeepO: and given their isolation, and their land (grass, lots of it, and rivers are abundant too)
zeit: you said they're working on swordsmen, right?
DeepO: they simply can't be farther behind
vondrack: that was DeepO's idea (re: swordsman)... but I find it quite reasonable
DeepO: well, as the best in commerce there are tricks to check on the rest of the teams
DeepO: which is why we were relatively certain of your economy as well
DeepO: and which means I can honestly say that a few turns back, RP was at most 2 gold behind you, as far as we can determine
DeepO: i'm not certain on the current situation
DeepO: ok, back to how we can counter
vondrack: ok
DeepO: i mean, we fear that in a few techs time, we will be left out of the loop
DeepO: as Bob has 3 civs, which could simultanously research 3 paths
DeepO: and 3 paths is the most you can get to in the middle ages
DeepO: so, we need to either break that circle of Bobians
DeepO: by taking one of them out of the loop
DeepO: either by deal, or by war (we are thinking on both options here)
vondrack: by war?
DeepO: yeah, war
DeepO: preemptive, because otherwise we could be toast ourselves
DeepO: we're quite happy on our continent, but it's not the easiest to defend
DeepO: being thin and all
zeit: If done right, the Bobians could be broken apart
DeepO: yes
DeepO: so they can't get a monopoly anymore
DeepO: but we could
DeepO: but, of course, this will not work with GS alone
DeepO: and Vox really has nothing to do with it
DeepO: we need Legoland in some way...
DeepO: we think it is in the best interest of you guys too
vondrack: yeah, we count on our future cooperation, of course
DeepO: but maybe you find it diffirently
DeepO: of course
DeepO: but given the opinion on our board, that is a given
DeepO: GS is ready to enter a long term alliance, at least for techs, with Lego
DeepO: but we think that later on, it should also provide options to block the progress on Bob
vondrack: I do not see any obstacles to such a long term tech alliance
DeepO: or it won't mean anything...
DeepO: that's already nice to hear, but how far would you be willing to go?
vondrack: even though at least for the nearest future, we would be sort of cautious to tick Bobians (RPers, to be honest) off
vondrack: they are very close to us
DeepO: very true
DeepO: I see
vondrack: and we are not fully developed military-wise
DeepO: so the risk is even greater then thought
vondrack: so, while we are all for trading with you, we would probably hesitate a lot about embargoing Bobians
vondrack: at least until we feel safe here
DeepO: well, right now it's not really an option
DeepO: we can't piss them off
DeepO: how long would you need to feel safe?
DeepO: I mean a rough guess, of course
DeepO: because the longer we wait, the bigger the risk
vondrack: 25-30 turns?
vondrack: we were lacking certain key techs for a long time
vondrack: it is rather difficult to tell...
DeepO: okay
DeepO: let's say we need about 15 turns to feel perfectly safe here
DeepO: depending on when we get to knights, of course
DeepO: well, I wouldn't propose to start embargoing now
DeepO: but it really has to be an option
DeepO: if we want to enter a long term deal
zeit: but limiting the trades, perhaps
vondrack: hmmm... perhaps "offering worse deals"?
vondrack: yes
zeit: putting NDA's on every deal with Bob
DeepO: limiting: not really, delaying by 1 or 2 turns could already help
DeepO: vondrack, one of the things that both teams are going to need to accept, is that sometimes short term gain is not that good when compared with long term gain
DeepO: if this means that we sometimes have to refuse income on a tech by selling it, so be it
vondrack: agreed

[vondrack]

DeepO: we were thinking on structures to compensate this, to divide the 'loss' between our two teams
DeepO: but it all depends on how far we can get here
DeepO: offering NDAs on all tech deals to the rest of the world might be the first thing to decide
DeepO: if we both agree on a 10 turn NDA for any tech we are going to distribute in the future, we're one step farther
DeepO: (not between ourselves, of course)
vondrack: like not allowing them to trade the techs to third parties?
DeepO: yep, that's the idea
vondrack: that sounds reasonable
DeepO: that way, we can at least prevent being ripped off on techs
DeepO: so that who we sell to, just splits the price with their partner
DeepO: there is one problem with this: we are going to need to expect NDAs on their techs too
DeepO: which is one of the reasons we couldn't really offer it to Vox on the techs we just sent them
DeepO: (we'll ask for it, though, but we can't demand)
DeepO: because otherwise, MT has to be bought from Vox
DeepO: and their price would be higher
vondrack: I see...
DeepO: yeah, I know it's not ideal
zeit: The arrangement from Vox will be changed in the future, though
DeepO: Vox really is a diplo headache to us
DeepO: very soon, I hope
zeit: Hopefully they won't be around alot longer...
DeepO: no, but that is another problem to us
DeepO: because we don't really need Bobians on our continent
vondrack: do you think Bobians have means to follow Voxes to your landmass?
DeepO: yes they have
DeepO: if they stick together
DeepO: that's the whole clue, basically
DeepO: Bob and our continent are so close, that if you build a port close enough, you can ferry 4 units with one galley, each turn
DeepO: which is why the Vox city was so strategically important
DeepO: and 4 riders... ouch
vondrack: the same would apply for us
vondrack: fortunately, we are a bit further overseas )
DeepO: ouch again
DeepO: better adequately defend that part of your world
vondrack: yeah, we know... that's what we need those 25-30 turns for
DeepO: okay, but in 25 turns, Vox might have disappeared from this game
DeepO: we could certainly take them out, defending our own territory, in that time span
DeepO: we have been building iinfrastructure, as said, and it starts to pay off
DeepO: but you're not doing that bad either... about 9 cities yourself, right?
vondrack: just a sec, I will check
vondrack: only 8
zeit: close enough, DeepO
DeepO: aha, could also be so... we're a bit farther ahead
DeepO: (not much, but blame that on disease)
DeepO: so our production can match anyone...
DeepO: btw, RP has about the same numbers
DeepO: ND and GoW are around 7 cities (a little less, maybe)
DeepO: Vox has 5, AFAIK
redstar1: where'd you get the intel?
DeepO: analysis
DeepO: but it's good to check
DeepO: I was pretty sure on your 8 cities
vondrack: aha... something we are not that good in, apparently
DeepO: but had to say one more, so you wouldn't get offended
DeepO: bah, some things GS is superb in, others not so
DeepO: I'm not so economical as eg nbarclay, or Aeson
DeepO: and war is purely a Theseus / Arrian thing
DeepO: but these guys have not been around a lot
DeepO: nothing to do
vondrack: all the Strat Forum regulars, I know...
DeepO:
DeepO: which is our problem
DeepO: nobody wants to fully trade with us
DeepO: thinking we'll backstab, perhaps...
DeepO: which is absolutely not needed, and no intention of ours
redstar1: are you saying we shouldn't be trading with you?
DeepO: not at all
redstar1: j/k
DeepO: but know that we have some kind of stigma we carry
redstar1: not a problem
redstar1: i forsee a bright future for us
vondrack: hmmm, I would think just the opposite - for such people, it would be nothing to be proud of if all they'd do would be a nice backstab...
vondrack: but I may be wrong, of course... )
DeepO: so if word would leak out that we are getting very close, the willingness of others to deal with you might drop
DeepO: well, backstabbing is not an option, really
DeepO: we agreed to be the most honorable team on the game, and we will do exactly that
DeepO: if it means we won't win, no problem whatsoever
DeepO: at least we had good fun
vondrack:
DeepO: so techs:
vondrack: ok
DeepO: i suggest we let this simmer a bit
DeepO: so both teams can think on what they want to accomplish
DeepO: and what they would agree to give up with
DeepO: on our side, one thing is certain, we will drop Vox in the future
vondrack: that is a good idea, I agree
vondrack: re: simmering
vondrack: perhaps re: Voxes, too )
DeepO: if keeping Vox around is going to hamper us with Lego
DeepO:
DeepO: but, we've got the first steps to take
DeepO: coordinating our research
zeit: coordinating deals with Bob, perhaps
DeepO: first of all, we see reachin knights as 1st prioirity
DeepO: i don't know where you stand on this
DeepO: we are set to start on feudalism
vondrack: hmm... I hope we will complement you nicely
DeepO: ok
vondrack: we do not really look towards Feu, as we have our Mercs
DeepO: true
redstar1: we see atomic weapons as priority
vondrack: so Feu alone is not worth the research for us
DeepO: but we first of all need it for knights, not feudalism
DeepO: we are not going to defend with pikes, if we can attack with knights
vondrack: Chivalry... oh, that will be something different
vondrack: Feudalism would really be choice #3 for us
vondrack: so if you are determined to go for it
DeepO: which is #2?
DeepO: I know #1
vondrack: then you may rest assured we will make a good deal in the future
DeepO: okay, no problem
DeepO: we should complement...
DeepO: I take it you wouldn need MT first?
vondrack: yes
DeepO: you are going to get in anarchy, next turn, no?
DeepO: so that shuld mean that we can see which tech Vox gives us
DeepO: and if it's different from MT, get you working on MT
DeepO: while we get feud
vondrack: nope, I do not think so... we have several builds under way, which we would like to finish first
vondrack: units, to be exact
DeepO: maybe it would be best if, in case we don't get MT from Vox, we research it
DeepO: ah, okay
DeepO: any eta?
vondrack: not yet
DeepO: no matter
vondrack: it will probably take a couple of turns
DeepO: ok
DeepO: what are you researching now?
DeepO: if I may ask
vondrack: hmmm... dunno if it is not supposed to be secret... hell, doesn't matter... nothing, actually
DeepO: that's best
vondrack: we need some cash for upgrades
DeepO: I was going to suggest that
DeepO: okay, no prob
DeepO: you should receive 80 gold next turn
vondrack:
vondrack: yes, thank you!
DeepO: so, let's say you will stay on cash, until we know what Vox gives at least
vondrack: yes, that is quite likely
DeepO: if they don't give MT, we start on that
vondrack: you = GS?
vondrack: or us?
DeepO: simply because we have the best research, and MT is the most expensive
vondrack: yeah, I see
DeepO: you=lego
DeepO: if they give MT, we will go on with feu
DeepO: and you can research #3 (forgot which)
DeepO: or even theology, perhaps
DeepO: this should take both of us to knights asap
vondrack: yes, those are fine options
DeepO: maybe one problem: if you're not interested in feu, I take it that wonder build you‘re going for is not supposed to be a prebuild for Sun Tsu?
vondrack: nope
DeepO: we kind of thought that would have been a good option for you
DeepO: but happiness would perhaps be fine too
vondrack: Sun Tsu?
DeepO: yeah
DeepO: no barracks to pay upkeep for
vondrack: we are more concerned about happiness
vondrack: we got screwed on luxuries
DeepO: ah, ok
vondrack: and we kind a fear that Bobians will simply embargo us on them
DeepO: of course, we would like to start trading those asap
DeepO: yeah, i was going to mention that
DeepO: we don't have many sorts (2)
vondrack: us only 1
DeepO: actually, 1 at the moment, but we should be able to get 2
vondrack: Dyes, to be precise
DeepO: furs here
DeepO: incent later...
DeepO: are you considering getting monarchy somewhere?
vondrack: not really
DeepO: we have been asking around, but nobody is interested...
vondrack: not viable for us
DeepO: only for the HG, of course
DeepO: because there is no WW in MP
vondrack: yes
DeepO: well, I'm not sure if I can offer you anything specific on MT right now
vondrack: I understand that
DeepO: so would it be an option for you, if we simply promise to send it immediately
vondrack: we went ahead with our deal, full aware of that MT would be negotiated later
DeepO: and discuss price in the coming few days?
vondrack: I would rather have the price set in advance, if you do not mind
vondrack: as we have seen with our previous deal, it is sometimes easy to misunderstand the extend which the other party aims for
DeepO: I was proposing to make this one a gold trade too, simply because it would be easier from then on
DeepO: okay
DeepO: in that case, I was thinking (personally), to set it below half of the current beaker cost
DeepO: meaning if you're the 3rd to get it, we offer you less then half that price.
vondrack: hmmm.... I will keep that it mind
DeepO: but we'll need to discuss things with Vox here first
vondrack: understood
DeepO: well... the problem is of course, that if possible, we will offer it to Bob too
DeepO: in which case, your price will drop considerably
vondrack: sure, we expect that
vondrack: I mean: we expect you would offer it to Bobians )
DeepO: but really, there is too few to say about that, I will get back to you in PM
vondrack: ok, thanks
DeepO: well, we don't know if we're allowed to
DeepO: because if Vox is thinking on resettling Bob, they have to keep something behind to pay for the use of land
vondrack: that's true
DeepO: so that is going to be a tricky situation
vondrack: but I doubt their tech would be enough
vondrack: Bobians are very touchy when it comes to their landmass
DeepO: true
DeepO: okay, further, I promise I will try to more precisly set out some rough document, detailing our plans for future coop
vondrack: ok, good idea
DeepO: but I wonder how much of this is simply RP pulling strings on the puppets
DeepO: yeah, it's good to see you share some of our concerns
DeepO: and that military threat is also well-known to you
vondrack: yes, it is
DeepO: I take it you are first of all interested in defending, not attacking?
DeepO: or do you feel the urge for new land soon too?
vondrack: of course - we are "builders" by definition )
vondrack: so we build
vondrack: not wage war, unless inevitable
DeepO: well, we have been builders, but were this is going to lead, I don't know
vondrack: we are currently in no shape to try hopping overseas
DeepO: and as said before, perhaps the only way of stopping Bob is going to be military
vondrack: especially since the closest neighbour is RPers with their huge military
DeepO: well... a lot can change in a few turns
vondrack: that's true, of course
DeepO: let's see what those riders are going to do to Bob first
DeepO: that could become very interesting
vondrack: agreed
DeepO: if it means GoW would be gone, we simply need to expand onto Bob
DeepO: but I don't think we'll mind that hard, our territory is almost fully build
vondrack: to prevent ND & RPers from becoming even stronger?
DeepO: yes
DeepO: ND especially
DeepO: that's one good team, playing there
DeepO: they have every reason to be so cocky in their negotiations
DeepO: (and no, it's not a language thing)
DeepO: so, I'll get back to you on plans for deals
vondrack: ok
vondrack: thanks a lot
DeepO: I suggest you do the same, and we compare notes next chat
vondrack: will do
vondrack: next Sunday, 9pm GMT?
DeepO: and in the mean time, we will get you updated on the tech situation
DeepO: and come up with a deal on MT
DeepO: yeah, 9pm would be superb
DeepO:
vondrack: great
DeepO: do you have anything further to ask
vondrack: I believe that you have told me so much that I will need some time to mull it over
vondrack: thanks for everything
DeepO: that's okay
DeepO: I hope it has been informative
vondrack: yes, it was
DeepO: never be afraid to ask
vondrack: I appreciate that
DeepO: as you can see, i've got lots of opinions to share
vondrack: well, then, both of you: take care & good luck!
Session Close: Sun Mar 30 23:56:32 2003

So, my comments:

either:
1) GS are so cocky and self-assured that they do not even consider the possibility of being wrong about this or that... which leads to them being wrong about just about everything - just read the log and you will be stunned by how many things they have no clue about or assume totally wrong - RPers being a superpower having "twice as much land as Lego" (while we know they are seriously losing breath because of poor city placement, overstretching, and overgrown military... while having less land than we do), number of GoW & ND cities (just have a look at our minimap)... it is just plain unbelievable.

or:
2) they are playing some devious game with us, pretending they are complete idiots... if that's the case, I am really curious what they are after (but I give this option 0.001% chance)

plus:
3) they did not even think of that we could have made our own deal with Voxes... I am really curious what they are going to do once they realize they are not going to sell us Monotheism for an all time low price of about 400 gold...

4) let's be very wary of close ties to this team... they are both "blind" (thus dangerous) and "greedy" (thus hardly to bring truly fine deals). Plus, I personally hate when someone treats me like I was an idiot... which is exactly what DeepO does (most probably unconsciously, though... being a victim of the generel GS feeling of superiority).

Oh, well...

[vondrack]

Considering how successfully we secured Monotheism from Voxes, it may be a good idea to let GS know... they will find out anyway, so why pretend we are attempting to fool them?

Something short and sweet... anyone having an idea and time to put a brief diplo memo together? Just tell them to enjoy their Monotheism and that we are now researching Theology and that we hope to be able to trade it with them later on. No need to tell them where we got Mono from... even though they will figure it out anyway.

[vondrack]

Oh, and one more thing... have you noticed how little ratified treaties mean to GS? DeepO expressly admitted GS did not include a no-resell clause in their deal with Voxes, which is a flagrant breach of the trade agreement they made with us:

Legoland - GS: Currency+Construction for Republic Trade Agreement of 950BC

1) Legoland agrees to provide Currency & Construction to GS one turn before GS provides Republic to Legoland. Legoland agrees to grant GS rights to resell/trade/gift Currency & Construction to Vox Controli. Legoland also agrees to not attempt to sell/trade/gift Currency or Construction to Vox Controli for 10 turns. GS agrees to not resell/trade/gift Currency & Construction to any other team for 10 turns. GS also agrees to ensure Vox Controli will not trade Currency or Construction to any other team for at least 10 turns.