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No wonder the proposal was approved unanimously on their board Fortunately time is more pressing for them than for us. We will have Currency in 4 turns, while the Republic is coming later (in 6, AFAIR).
"The only way to avoid being miserable is not to have enough leisure to wonder whether you are happy or not. "
--George Bernard Shaw
A fast word about oral contraception. I asked a girl to go to bed with me and she said "no".
--Woody Allen
No problem on the delay, we all have a life outside here
We are however, somewhat confused...
We understood Currency and Construction would be a straight trade for Republic as soon as is possible. We are however prepared to gift Currency and Construction one turn before you gift us Republic. This one turn difference would be the most we can afford as every turn counts.
Could you expand on 'Natural Disasters' please?
We also understood that the 'free' tech from Vox would in fact, be free. Without this deal we would be able to attain it ourselves for Currency & Construction so we would require the result to be the same with yourselves effectively acting as broker. We must have misunderstood each other on this so we perhaps need to discuss this further.
In any case, we see the deal as follows:
1. Lego gives GS Curr&Const 1 turn before Lego receives Rep from GS
2. GS are free to trade C&C to Vox on the condition that they supply us with Monotheism for free immediately they receive it from Vox.
3. GS are free to trade C&C to ND
We hope we can come to agreement on this and we hope for a long and fruitful trading relationship between ourselves. It may come to pass that we are the only two nations yet untarnished by conflict...
Apologies about the chat last night, I was not here much so hopefully next week will be more fruitful!
no problem on the explanations, that's why we want these proposals to be precise I thought everything came from the chat, but it's only normal that both parties have a different understanding on the contents, so better to make it clear then.
Currency&Construction for republic should be okay for us, we'd prefer to have it beforehand, so we don't waste turns on less then 100% science, though. That's why we asked for immediate, but 1 turn beforehand should be fine as well.
Natural disasters: when recounting, it seems we made a little mistake, in that we missed one turn. At best, we should get republic in turn 83, and if anything would go wrong, that goes to turn 84. And it seems something is going wrong, there has been a lot of pressure coming from Bob, and it might be needed for us to change the order in which our cities are founded to better protect out territory... it's not definate yet, but that change might make republic only possible in turn 84, leaving us no time in between getting the tech, and trading it onwards.
The problem is Vox... there was some kind of implicit understanding that we wouldn't bother to settle Bob, and none of the Bobians would come bother us here. But, last turn, Vox landed a settler and a couple of immortals on Bob, and GoW is getting pissed, and threatening. They somehow think it is a common plan of Vox and GS to invade them... as a result, we need to rearrange our cities, to settle in more defensive position first, instead of going for the least corrupted, and most commerce city sites...
Natural disasters: normally this shouldn't cover changes in city placement because of external tension, the intention (and when I first wrote it, the only real reason) for that clause is because we have been hit by disease a couple of times already in this game. And, because of the bug that disease strikes for two consecutive turns each time it hits you, this can make a big difference in gathered resources... we would have been over 3 cities more powerful now, if it wasn't for disease. It was simply a clause that would make it possible for us to be unlucky in the game, without needing to feel the diplomatic repercussions of that.
Free tech: I misuderstood you, I think... I only stated in chat that we would trade it to you, implying at a favorable price, because it wouldn't be logical for Vox to give it to you for free (and neither would it for us to give republic+monotheism for currency+construction, that's about triple the beaker cost). I do not think anyone of our team will agree for this...
Sorry, hard pressed for time (I need to give classes now), more this evening. Please don't hesitate to contact me!
It isn't republic+monotheism for currency+construction, it's republic+monotheism for currency+construction+right to trade currency+construction to Vox.
Otherwise we would just trade currency+construction for Monotheism with Vox.
I hate to say it, but: I told you
"The only way to avoid being miserable is not to have enough leisure to wonder whether you are happy or not. "
--George Bernard Shaw
A fast word about oral contraception. I asked a girl to go to bed with me and she said "no".
--Woody Allen
I think we have interpreted some things in different ways, but no matter, its nothing serious and we can work through them
You have our sympathies with disease. We too have lots of Jungle but thankfully we have so far avoided any major incidents.
We fully appreciate the situation with Vox maybe be somewhat pressing for yourselves and hopefully it will not disrupt your plans too much. It may even give ourselves an oppurtunity to gain an advantage over the others
On the free tech issue... can you specify what a 'fair price' would be?
Would you be willing to consider extending the sphere of influence concept to include Monotheism? ie We get rights to trade to GOW and yourselves the rest?
If we remove Mono from the equation altogether, then the deal as we see it currently would need to be:
1. Currency & Construction for Republic, within the timeframe agreed upon.
2. Both sides agree not to 'Whore' the tech(s) received for a specified perios of time, say 20 turns.
Is this a bluff? If so,
This should bring them back on the ground. They were dreaming to ripp off Lego.
I hope it'll work, because we have an agreement with the GoW to give them the Republic. However I think the GoW will be happy to give us less money for a trade without Republic. This shouldn't be a problem.
"The only way to avoid being miserable is not to have enough leisure to wonder whether you are happy or not. "
--George Bernard Shaw
A fast word about oral contraception. I asked a girl to go to bed with me and she said "no".
--Woody Allen
Originally posted by Tiberius
Is this a bluff? If so,
This should bring them back on the ground. They were dreaming to ripp off Lego.
I hope it'll work, because we have an agreement with the GoW to give them the Republic. However I think the GoW will be happy to give us less money for a trade without Republic. This shouldn't be a problem.
Fortunately, the deal with GoW has not been signed yet. I have sent the final document to GoW earlier today (forgot to do that before) and GF asked for easing the no-whoring clause a bit... so there is a possibility of dropping Republic from that deal altogether, possibly lowering the price a bit... I am working on that.
OK, a quick update. Talking to GF of GoW earlier today, he expressed a lot of interest in acquiring Republic from us, so dropping that from our deal seems to be unlikely (the deal is still being debated a bit, but basically agreed upon).
TOP SECRET INFO: GF told me all the Bobian civs were going to declare war on Estonians this turn. Let's see what that does for our cause... until then, we shall not respond to last DeepO's message (the last redstar's message was actually not sent - it's just a draft).
Also, I have arranged a chat with BetaHound of Voxes for 10:00pm GMT this evening - I hope to get detailed info on how likely it is or might be to trade for Monotheism with Voxes directly, bypassing the "greedy" GS. (Tibi, if you can drop into the Lego chatroom around 10pm GMT, I'd copy the conversation for you, so that you can follow it and suggest ideas. I believe that an "informal" chat would be best to start with... but if things go smoothly, we may later make it more official by Nimitz, you, and redstar joining in (whoever is online at that moment).
10 PM GMT is a little late for me (midnight, so "a hard day's night" ) but I'll try to be there.
"The only way to avoid being miserable is not to have enough leisure to wonder whether you are happy or not. "
--George Bernard Shaw
A fast word about oral contraception. I asked a girl to go to bed with me and she said "no".
--Woody Allen
Originally posted by ZargonX
Do they intend to fight both Estonian civs? If so, things could turn out a lot differently...
Not sure... here is a short excerpt from my chat with GhengisFarb today:
GhengisFarb: What's up? vondrack: we are having sort of tough time dealing with Estonians GhengisFarb: Everybody is. vondrack: vondrack: now, what would help us vondrack: if we can press them a bit GhengisFarb: ND, GoW, And Roleplay will all declare war on them today, will that press them a bit?
So, it actually depends on what GF understood under the term "Estonians". We (Lego) use it to denote Voxes and GS. He might have only Voxes in mind, though...
Well, GF has indicated in the past that he feels that Vox and GS act as one (which we know not to be the case). With that mindset, though, he could balloon the conflict to involve both civs. In that instance, we would be the only civ in the world not at war, and that could benefit us greatly
... of course, it could also adversely effect us down the road, but we'll get to that later...
I think we probably have misunderstood each other on this issue
Let us simplify the deal somewhat. We propose:
1. Lego gives GS Currency & Construction including resale rights to Vox.
2. In exchange, 1 turn later, GS will give Lego Republic, plus 75 gold (should account for the beaker difference). GS will also grant Lego resale rights for GOW.
After having almost the whole day to think the deal with GS over, I suggest we respond as follows:
Dear DeepO,
I think we probably have misunderstood each other on the issue of the free technology. Our original idea was that it would be kinda like a three-sided deal with GS, Vox, and Lego involved. GS would be providing Republic, Voxes would be providing their free tech, and Lego would be providing Currency+Construction (beaker costs approximately the same...). Everybody was supposed to get all the techs - it seemed to be a fair deal to us.
Well, we now see that it is not probably going to work, so let's try discussing two possibilities:
1) suppose we agree to get Monotheism from you for a "favourable price" - what is your idea of this "favourable price", please?
2) suppose we get all the way back to your original idea: trading Currency+Construction (resale rights for Voxes & ND included) for Republic+gold (resale rights for GoW and maybe RPers included). How much gold would you offer to balance the beaker cost difference between The Republic (672) and Currency+Construction combined (384+480=864)? The resale right part is fortunately equal on both sides...
If you can provide us with some figures for both of these option, it would help us to make our choice and proceed with the deal.
redstar1, I suspected this... a miscommunication, no fault or wrong intent by either side... so let's get back to the trading table then, I'm sure we'll work something out
Unfortunately, I still was unable to fully catch up to the current situation, but from our side, one of the reason to make this a double 2-sided deal instead of a 3-side one is that we need some options in how to deal with Vox. This was true beforehand because Vox is unstable, a (long term) risk to us, and we had a former deal to wrap up, but this has become even more true given the new situation.
With Vox and Bob very close to, or even in the middle of a war, they become an even larger liability. Normally, they should be able to survive to the time we need to supply cons+curr to them, but if Bob really does unite against Vox - as GF has been claiming - they will not survive much longer after getting monotheism. It could make their willingness to trade with us as a group a whole lot more difficult. Consider that, if Vox knows that GS and the Legos are getting very close, they also know that somewhere down the road they are being dropped from the head of the tech race, a position they now only have because of us.
Given this, there are two things we would like to insist on:
1) this deal will be between us two, with perhaps reasonable guesses of what others can contribute, but without them getting involved in our agreement. We'll deal with Vox separately, we simply have to.
2) as much as possible, we try to consider monotheism as something we aim for, but not something definate, as the situation with Vox does not make it a definate thing. Making it part of the deal makes sense as it will be the next tech on the market, and either one of us will need it to start on hiis new tech, but we should provide enough "plan B"s in case something goes wrong when getting it. We thought Lux would be an advantage to us if we let them stay on our continent, we were wrong... we rather not have another diplo hit because some civ gets eradicated.
Further ideas: Vox will get construction and currency from us, we are bound here by a former deal we can not revoke, nor renegotiate. They could agree to get it from you for some laugable price (which I believe they have tried to negotiate to see what the current price for techs are), but never will they pay anything valuable because they already have one source secured. If they wouldn't get the techs from us, they will not get any compensation out of our side, so anything they spend is a pure loss. (except for improved relations, which are perhaps the most valuable asset in this game)
... continued...
...
As to your questions:
1) "favourable price" could mean a lot, but basically in this context it means that we fully understand the 'first' deal of curr+constr for rep is largely in our favor, and we owe you for that. We would like to have it included in (at least the beginning of) a long term tech deal, which would make its virtual value its beaker cost, to be offsetted by a future trade from us.
If I need to put a money tag on it (mind you, my opinion, GS has not seen this yet), I would say that a favourable price should mean that for all the deals other teams might strike on that tech, legoland should get the bottom price. That should be low enough, I think, but it's hard to put a precise number of it... maybe half, or one third of 'first' price.
2) not nit-picking, but the resale part of the techs is not the same, not by far even. If we get currency+construction from you, the moment we get it, at least 4 other teams have it as well, perhaps even 5 of them (only leaving Vox as last). We could 'resell' it to them, but the actual value of it is bottom price, as in theory (without the previous GS-Vox deal) they would have 4 or 5 sources to trade it from. Further, you will resell the techs to us, instead of researching themselves. Not that it tastes any different, but those are third-hand techs we're getting
Republic, OTOH, has full resell value, you will get it before anyone else by at least a few turns, and you will have two sure buyers for it. They will still offer premium prices (and you better insist on it!), as they will not be able to get it from another source, we will not sell it to them, and will enforce NDAs on 'our' rep-deals.
Last resale comment: ND is no sure buyer for us, maybe we can enforce republic, but the other techs they will likely get before us.
So, the resale part does negate the pure difference cost in beakers a bit, meaning that difference should translate into about 40 gold or so (again, no proposal, just a personal guess!). Instead of precisely calculating the costs, we would rather have this surpluss written on our 'GS favour -- needs to be repaid to Lego' tab, and solving the difference with a future deal.
But if you want, I can start an official poll on how much we would be willing to pay in gold; I'll gladly do it if it would make the deal easier for you. We are not that short on change to risk losing friends
Fortunately time is more pressing for them than for us. We will have Currency in 4 turns, while the Republic is coming later (in 6, AFAIR).
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