Gathering Storm - correspondence & foreign affairs

[Kloreep]

The deal then would be:

1) 180 gold & their WM at the moment we deliver Edu
2) 50 gold & at the moment we swap Banking and Astro

[lmtoops]

I agree with this deal

[vondrack]

OK, we seem to be happy asking for just 50 more gold. Here goes my PM to DeepO (just sending it):

Hello, DeepO!

I can imagine your surprise... it is as we thought. We might be able too sweeten the deal on your side a bit, however we did not lie to you about our income. Don't forget we had no time to build marketplaces, and our military is quite possibly double or triple yours. The Vox war has cost us a lot... we're recuperating though, but it will take time.

It was not we wouldn't believe your words - it was that the amount of gold looked... well... we're speaking here about Education, costing over 1000 beakers to research... would you be happy to sell it for ~230 gold (and that's with the map being valued at 50 gold)? Just remember how much you asked for Feudalism, which was more than 25% cheaper to research... plus, selling you Education for gold at this moment definitely involves many strategic aspects on both sides.

But, one (personal) remark about pricing: with a 20-turn NDA, and even a commitment of us to not profit from Edu even after the NDA would have been finished, you can't expect that we pay half your beaker cost in gold... you have 4 more buyers, and the second-researcher cost is already lower... don't get me wrong, I'm sure we can up the price (a little), but don't expect miracles

I hope we do not expect miracles , but upping the price a bit is definitely the way to go. Discussing the deal in our forum, there seems to be a proposal having a solid support. Basically, it would be like this:

1) 180 gold & your WM at the moment we deliver Edu (we shall discover Edu on - and this is now a solid ETA - our Turn 121, in 150BC, so you would receive it on your Turn 122, in 130 BC)
2) 50 gold at the moment we swap Banking and Astro (which we assume would be the next research goals for you and us)

20-turn or eternal NDAs (your choice) on all techs involved.

So, the only difference compared to your proposal is 50 extra gold payable on the Bank/Astro switch (not really to balance the Bank/Astro switch itself, but to balance the deal as a whole). Would this be okay with you? If yes, I will send a paragraphed version at your request (just state your preference re: NDAs).

Best regards,
vondrack

[vondrack]

DeepO has been quick to respond:

Vondrack,

Sorry, very little time today at work, but it looks we'll be getting there. I'll post your message on our board, and see what the others think. I don't have clearance to accept this deal, it's above what we previously agreed to, so it's going to need another poll (Democracy, democracy, *sigh* )

You're right with the comparison to Feud, which was the same one we made: we asked 25% of the first researcher cost, which should become some 270 for Edu. However, as was so painfully proven, our deal only came with a 10-turn NDA, and made future trade possible... which is why we value Edu less. But, granted, we want Edu, and you were in no hurry to acquire Feud (well, you didn't either ).

If at all possible, I'd like to postpone the discussion on mutual profit after NDA for this weekend (Sunday chat?), we've got a couple of ideas, but nothing final yet, and would love to hear your take on things. Main idea is that we don't become competitors on techs which we cooperated on. However, we don't want to limit trade with other teams either... so eternal NDAs will probably be undesirable. For the moment, let's assume 20-turn classic NDAs.

Thanks for the exact Eta, it will surely help in planning. Also here are some points we'd like to discuss on Sunday: a couple of times it was raised in our forum that faster research isn't always the best, certainly not when war would break out on Bob. Maybe we shouldn't speed along too fast (I received some comments from trying to speed research on edu, and indeed, while there are a number of advantages, there are also disadvs involved)

It looks like Sunday's chat is again going to become a busy one, in the mean time, I'll see what I can do to meet your price. You'll hear from me soon,
kind regards,
DeepO

So, let's see what happens... I would not want to make this a sour experience for either of us, so if they ask for 10-20 less gold, I would say "what the hell... if you can't pay more, have it for whatever you can pay - just keep in mind we did you a favour". But I think they will take it eventually.

[vondrack]

Keeping the phone lines busy.

DeepO,

Sorry, very little time today at work, but it looks we'll be getting there. I'll post your message on our board, and see what the others think. I don't have clearance to accept this deal, it's above what we previously agreed to, so it's going to need another poll (Democracy, democracy, *sigh* )

No problem - as indicated by the Edu ETA in my previous PM, we do have a couple of turns to finalize the deal. No need for any prepayments, so as long as we agree on the terms at least on the turn we discover Edu (T121), there will be no delay.

You're right with the comparison to Feud, which was the same one we made: we asked 25% of the first researcher cost, which should become some 270 for Edu. However, as was so painfully proven, our deal only came with a 10-turn NDA, and made future trade possible... which is why we value Edu less. But, granted, we want Edu, and you were in no hurry to acquire Feud (well, you didn't either ).

Precisely 275 gold . Keep in mind, please, that there is another difference of 96 beakers between Astronomy & Banking in our favour (would equal to 24 gold, using the 25% math, bringing the "total" to 299 gold), plus we haven't even tried to negotiate the price of or completely omit your WM from the trade.

If at all possible, I'd like to postpone the discussion on mutual profit after NDA for this weekend (Sunday chat?), we've got a couple of ideas, but nothing final yet, and would love to hear your take on things. Main idea is that we don't become competitors on techs which we cooperated on. However, we don't want to limit trade with other teams either... so eternal NDAs will probably be undesirable. For the moment, let's assume 20-turn classic NDAs.

Fine with us. Using the term "eternal NDA" I meant any future resales would have to be negotiated separately - not that we would exclude the possibility of resales once forever. I can sure imagine there would be a situation you'd be able to strike a deal, while we would be not or vice versa - and it would of course be foolish to insist on NDAs then.

Thanks for the exact Eta, it will surely help in planning. Also here are some points we'd like to discuss on Sunday: a couple of times it was raised in our forum that faster research isn't always the best, certainly not when war would break out on Bob. Maybe we shouldn't speed along too fast (I received some comments from trying to speed research on edu, and indeed, while there are a number of advantages, there are also disadvs involved)

This will most probably not be a major problem. We are not researching as fast as we could be anyway. We do realize that being too far ahead has its disadvantages, too.

Best regards,
vondrack

[vondrack]

Finally, the draft from DeepO:

Hello Vondrack,

I'm sorry this message got delayed, I couldn't get into 'poly yesterday, when I had time to write the draft.

Further, even if it is a draft, we've ratified it. Normally, there shouldn't be any problem on your side, if there is, please let me know and I'll adjust, and ask for re-ratifying it in GS...

Lego-GS Education and future tech deal

1. Gathering Storm agrees to buy Education from Legoland, at the price of 230 gold + their World Map. The 230 gold and WM will be given to Lego as soon as this deal is ratified. Lego will give Education as soon as they discover it.

2. GS agrees to a 20-turn NDA on Education, a period during which they will not sell or give Education to any other team. Moreover, GS agrees to not selll this tech even after the NDA has expired, without consent from Legoland (and a possible discussion on shared profits)

3. Once education has been traded, GS will start researching Banking, while Legoland will start researching Astronomy. Once these techs are discovered, they will be swapped as equal (even if Astronomy is slightly more expensive). These techs also come with a 20-turn NDA.

4. Future discussion is needed to agree on a possible 'mutual profit' scheme for banking / astronomy, where the 20-tun NDA could be replaced with a more complicated agreement, in order to ensure both party's profit after NDAs would run out.

5. Further, future discussion is needed on the timing of these techs, so that both GS and Legoland have the best chance of distributing these techs after discovery. Possibly this will result in a common ETA for both techs, delayed from the fastest ETA (for one tech).

6. After Banking is discovered, GS has the right to start on Economics, where Lego promises to research something else. GS could waive this right later, if situations change. However, they will keep Legoland informed if this would happen, so that Lego can respond in time.

7. Both parties agree that the spirit of this agreement is most important, not the exact wording. If loopholes, or possible problems would appear later, negotiations should commence to try to iron out possible conflicts before they occur.

I hope this fits your hopes of this deal,
kind regards,
DeepO

I would say this is one of the better treaties we have been offered (well written). And actually, we are getting more than we asked for - GS will pay 230g upon the ratification of this treaty (that is quite generous), agrees to not mess with our own research (Banking, then most probably Economy), and agrees to not resell Edu without our consent. What more could we ask for?

Could it be that GS learnt something about diplomacy and trading...?

[Tiberius]

Sounds good.

[lmtoops]

I have no problem with the treaty.

[Nimitz]

Wow, what happen to the cool hard stratigists we once knew, did they learn something about dealing with people?

[ZargonX]

This treat looks excellent to me. I will send a note to DeepO considering it signed, assuming no one has any objections.

[Kloreep]

Looks great.

[Tiberius]

Just nitpicking: who is signing it in behalf of GS?

[ZargonX]

Spoke with DeepO: they will be sending the money and WM next turn. I will send Edu as unnaccepted this turn, waiting for the actual receipt of said money.

[vondrack]

Sorry - I had promised to post this, but later forgot to.

Session Start: Sun Jul 06 23:13:45 2003
Session Ident: Shiber
vondrack: just a question...
Shiber: shoot
vondrack: we will have Edu ready this turn or one turn later
Shiber: congratulations
vondrack: I guess you were supposed to send the payment "after the treaty was ratified"
vondrack: but we have not received anything yet
vondrack: even though there was at least one, maybe two turns...
Shiber: It's in our next turn thread, we will send it when we get the save
vondrack: ok, fine
vondrack: we will send Edu as soon as we have it then
vondrack: and one more bit of info:
vondrack: not sure if Voxes told you
Shiber: vondrack, we only recently received confirmation from your team that the deal has been ratified
Shiber: Yes, now I see that ZargonX sent a confirmation message "Signed, ZargonX" after we played the previous turn.
Shiber: Oh, sorry for interrupting you
vondrack: ah, ok... I did not know it was so recently...
vondrack: so: The New Voice
vondrack: we delayed its foundation by three turns (too many barbs around)
vondrack: so it will be founded
vondrack: on the next turn (122, I think)
vondrack: this turn, units move to the destination tile
vondrack: next turn, the city will be founded and handed over to Vox
Shiber: OK, that doesn't sound like it'll be a problem though. But thanks for letting me know.
vondrack: we have been able to bring in more escorts, so we do not expect any more delays now
vondrack: ok
vondrack: well - won't keep you any longer then
vondrack: good night!
Shiber: OK, good night sweetie
vondrack:
vondrack: bye
Session Close: Sun Jul 06 23:21:02 2003

[ZargonX]

D'oh. I was hoping it got through to them before they played the turn. I had sent it originally right before the holiday, but (as is common these days) something was screwy with 'poly. I wasn't sure if it went through or not, and I guess the first one obviously didn't.