Hello everybody

[molly bloom]

I'm a convert.

We all know this by now. Ad nauseam.

Calling me a Catholic faithful to the Church is a huge compliment.

I didn't. I don't mind you paraphrasing what I say, but entirely misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I say, well, that's rather dim.

[Aeson]

You've proven my point. Arguing that you can buy land in the Philippines because it's cheaper, confirms the problem that I'm getting at. Land prices and housing values are way out of proportion with what most people earn.

No. It only shows that people have choice even at rather low income levels, they aren't slaves.

Land prices are high in most places people want to live in the US because people have the means to pay for it.

[Ben Kenobi]

I did not say, nor even imply, that the state should do away with recognition of marriage.

Yet you said you didn't want to be providing state recognition for having children. How are you going to split the difference between one and the other?

My point is that expanding the definition to include same-gender couples does not diminish, or even change, the situation of heterosexual couples.

Yes, it does. And quite significantly so.

By analogy, if we were to grant the vote to non-citizens, would that impact the rights of a citizen of the united states? Yes or no?

Again, gay marriage does not affect that in any way.

You said there was no fertility crisis. So you are conceding, that yes, in fact, there is a fertility crisis? That society has a concern over the fact that people are not choosing to have children, is a very real problem for Europe. Ergo, society does have a vested interest in ensuring it's own survival, which is the point that I was trying to make.

Not before you tell me how the Civil Rights Act, the 19th Amendment, and child labor laws have damaged society. Nice attempt at moving the goal posts from 100 years to 50 BTW. But it doesn't change the fact that your contention -- "changing rules damages society as a whole" -- is an obtusely reactionary "argument" that has absolutely no bearing on the issue of gay marriage.

So you're willing to concede that there have been exactly zero improvements over the last 50 years? I rest my case. For all the brilliance of your argument, you've given me everything I've asked for.

I've got a fellow who found his opportunities in the Philippines arguing that America isn't in trouble (which seems obvious given what he's been doing), and not I have a 'progressive' arguing that there's been no 'progress' in 50 years and he finds that acceptable - enough so to call me a reactionary! I said that the balance is negative, and JR would know that if he had read my earlier posts..

[Ben Kenobi]

Of course he ignored this brilliant post.

Last I checked Poly is running like ****, and is still broken.

[Ben Kenobi]

What do you expect when you put people like Reagan in charge to give everything to the rich.

Newsflash, Obama's turned the clock back on workforce participation 20 years. People are choosing to stay home rather than look for work. Under Reagan's tenure, people actually had jobs and there was a large increase in the percentage of people working.

[Ben Kenobi]

You have written a great many stupid things in your time. This may be one of the most offensive and stupid. May I suggest that you say to an African-American Texan that they are no better off paying taxes now than their ancestors were being slaves in the past ?

Will North Carolina do?

Thomas Sowell shares my opinion that taxation is just another form of slavery.

[Ben Kenobi]

I didn't. I don't mind you paraphrasing what I say, but entirely misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I say, well, that's rather dim.

When I believe that the Church's authority comes from Christ - calling me a pre-20th century Catholic is a compliment.

[rah]

So you're saying things improved under Reagan. Wasn't he a president less than 50 years ago?

[Aeson]

I've got a fellow who found his opportunities in the Philippines arguing that America isn't in trouble (which seems obvious given what he's been doing)

You've got it entirely backwards.

Land is cheap in the Philippines because:

a) people don't have money there
b) people who do have money generally don't choose to move there

Land is expensive in the US because:

a) people do have money there
b) people with money generally do choose to live there

As an added bonus, US citizens can choose to live in the US or Philippines (or pretty much anywhere) if they can afford it. People from the Philippines (or any third world country) have little to no options to choose where they live.

How you can think this situation (which favors US citizens in every way) means America is in trouble is beyond me.

[Ben Kenobi]

So you're saying things improved under Reagan. Wasn't he a president less than 50 years ago?

Economically, yes. I'm not aware of any significant positive social changes that he enacted.

[Ben Kenobi]

How you can think this situation (which favors US citizens in every way) means America is in trouble is beyond me.

It's simply supply and demand. American dollars go far further there than stateside. My point is that it is difficult for most people in the states to buy a house without putting themselves into significant debt. You counter that by saying, this isn't so, by citing your experience in the Philippines.

If Americans like you are choosing to go to the Philippines in order to live like you could have done in America, yes, that's a sign of decline.

[Ming]

And your point is? Doesn't change the fact that taxation is slavery, just in a different form.

Let's see... slavery....
- you are property
- your owner can do with you what you want
- They can rape you
- They can beat you
- They can sell your family members to other owners
- You have no choices on how to live your life
- You have no freedom

Taxes
- You have freedom
- You owe part of what you make to the government

Not even close Ben...
Yes, this is one of the most moronic posts you have ever made. But one we would expect from you.
Ben Land is an ugly and bigoted place.

[Aeson]

It's simply supply and demand. American dollars go far further there than stateside. My point is that it is difficult for most people in the states to buy a house without putting themselves into significant debt. You counter that by saying, this isn't so, by citing your experience in the Philippines.

If Americans like you are choosing to go to the Philippines in order to live like you could have done in America, yes, that's a sign of decline.

No, if Americans like me can go to the Philippines it's a sign of how well we're doing. I can earn relatively little money, fly halfway around the world, pay Visa fees, add a VAT onto my US income taxes... and still have a good life.

The fact that most people chose not to do that only means they feel staying in the US is an even better option than that.

[Dauphin]

Taxes
- You have freedom
- You owe part of what you make to the government

Plus, ostensibly on point B), the government owes you services in return.

[gribbler]

You have written a great many stupid things in your time. This may be one of the most offensive and stupid. May I suggest that you say to an African-American Texan that they are no better off paying taxes now than their ancestors were being slaves in the past ?


I somehow doubt that you will find anyone (in full possession of their mental faculties) to agree with you.

Ben has claimed in the past that blacks were better off when they were slaves than they are now.

[gribbler]

Newsflash, Obama's turned the clock back on workforce participation 20 years. People are choosing to stay home rather than look for work. Under Reagan's tenure, people actually had jobs and there was a large increase in the percentage of people working.

Newsflash, there was a global financial meltdown near the end of Bush's tenure that gave us the worst recession since WWII. There wasn't much Obama could do about it except deficit spending in an attempt to stimulate the economy which he obviously did.

Newsflash, the decline in labor force participation began under Bush. Apparently as the population ages more people "retire" and stop wanting work.

You whined about how the standard of living hasn't changed much for most people since the 70s. Newsflash, the US economy has grown a lot since then but almost all of the gains have gone to the rich.

[rah]

I still haven't figured out how taxation is relevant to gay marriages. This is his typical moving argument style. If you never know what he's really arguing, it's tougher to pin him down. And if you know what he's arguing badly, he just changes it.

I still want to know how he is personally harmed by gay marriage. I don't see how his "I THINK" society has gone down hill in the last 100 years can be laid at the feet of gay marriage. Please make a more concrete connection. Or just admit that the thought of a couple of guys next door being married freaks you out.

[rah]

And just for grins.

con·sum·mate   [v. kon-suh-meyt; adj. kuhn-suhm-it, kon-suh-mit] Show IPA verb, con·sum·mat·ed, con·sum·mat·ing, adjective
verb (used with object)
1.
to bring to a state of perfection; fulfill.
2.
to complete (an arrangement, agreement, or the like) by a pledge or the signing of a contract: The company consummated its deal to buy a smaller firm.
3.
to complete (the union of a marriage) by the first marital sexual intercourse.


You'll note that number 3 doesn't say "have babies" It just says first marital sexual intercourse.
Now I know in sick Ben christian land that all sexual intercourse is meant to produce babies, and any deviation from that goal lands you in hell, but in the non sicko world, sexual intercourse means sexual intercourse. Gays qualify there.

So failure to consummation as a reason for divorce is totally irrelevant to the argument.

[gribbler]

Let's see... slavery....
- you are property
- your owner can do with you what you want
- They can rape you
- They can beat you
- They can sell your family members to other owners
- You have no choices on how to live your life
- You have no freedom

Taxes
- You have freedom
- You owe part of what you make to the government

Not even close Ben...
Yes, this is one of the most moronic posts you have ever made. But one we would expect from you.
Ben Land is an ugly and bigoted place.

Yeah, but the labor force participation rate is higher under slavery.

[Flubber]

I ask the same question as gribbler. Why then is failure to consummate grounds for divorce?

Lack of consummation is NOT grounds for divorce if the parties married with no expectation of consumation. While is is considered a fundamental aspect of many marriages (and therefore its lack is grounds for divorce (or to render the marriage a nullity)) it is not a fundamental part of all marriages.

Note the common law exception around consummation had nothing to do with gay people as I understand it and was more around allowing the impotent, disabled or sexually disinterested to marry without having their partner able to render the marriage a nullity at any later time.

[gribbler]

Of course he ignored this brilliant post.

Welcome back Ben.

Of course he does. He's an unrepentant bigot and he only uses his brain to come up with rationalizations for it.

[Ben Kenobi]

Let's see... slavery....
- you are property

Oh, and what happens to people who owe money to the IRS? They are arrested and go to jail.

So, slavery, you are property. Taxation, you are property. You are owned by the state.

your owner can do with you what you want

And the state can do with you what they want. See above.

They can rape you

Sounds like prison.

They can beat you

Sounds like prison. So far it's 4/4.

They can sell your family members to other owners

And what happens to your children if you are arrested and put in jail? They become wards of the state, who are given to foster families. 5/5

You have no choices on how to live your life

So you're aware of the current bill that Pelosi is pushing, that if the IRS says you owe money, you lose your passport? That's a significant step towards total control of your life.

You have no freedom

And when you are arrested, you don't have freedom either.

You owe part of what you make to the government

You are owned by the government, for whom you work for 6 months of the year, and you're thankful that they let you have the other 6 months? America used to know what real freedom was like.

Ben Land is an ugly and bigoted place.

How is arguing that income taxation is equivalent to slavery, where the fruits of your labor are consumed by the apparatus of the state? At least under slavery, you could flee and escape. The current Pelosi law is akin to the fugitive slave law, barring people from escaping their master, the state.

[Ben Kenobi]

The fact that most people chose not to do that only means they feel staying in the US is an even better option than that.

The fact that you can do things in the Philippines that you cannot do any longer in America, reinforces my argument.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben has claimed in the past that blacks were better off when they were slaves than they are now.

Well, you're going to have to provide a citation for 'something I pulled outta my ass that I sincerely wish were true'.

[Ben Kenobi]

Newsflash, there was a global financial meltdown near the end of Bush's tenure that gave us the worst recession since WWII.

So Obama, like Hoover is both ineffective and worthless at fixing the economy. Good to know it's still Bush's fault for Obama's devastatingly bad economic policies.

Wasn't the stimulus supposed to actually stimulate something other than his own bank account? I wonder how much he managed to skim off the top. I doubt we'll ever know.

There wasn't much Obama could do about it except deficit spending in an attempt to stimulate the economy which he obviously did.

He could have cut unnecessary domestic spending, the size of the government, lowered the tax burden on corporations, lowered the tax burden on individuals.

Instead, he's racked up deficits greater than anywhere in the free world. And the result? All that public spending, and the economy is still doing terribly. So many people have given up that they are out of the workforce entirely.

Newsflash, the decline in labor force participation began under Bush. Apparently as the population ages more people "retire" and stop wanting work.

Which is why young people under 30 are seeing record lows in workforce participation dating back to the depression? It's actually the older folks who are doing proportionally better than every one else. The people who are really taking it in the shorts are the young folks who have the misfortune of coming of age in the Obama era.

Oh, and black folks too. Obama has put more black folks out of work than anyone since FDR.

Newsflash, the US economy has grown a lot since then but almost all of the gains have gone to the rich.

Actually, all the gains have been given up. There were concrete real wealth gains, but now, things are back to the late 70s. A huge part of it is the inflationary policies that have massively eroded the value of the American dollar.

[Ben Kenobi]

You'll note that number 3 doesn't say "have babies" It just says first marital sexual intercourse.

It says the union in marriage. Men and women.

Now I know in sick Ben christian land that all sexual intercourse is meant to produce babies

Aren't you a Catholic? Yeah, it's official Catholic teaching that sex is supposed to produce babies. It's not exactly controversial. Have sex, have a baby. Gosh.

and any deviation from that goal

You don't have to have sex if you don't want babies.

in the non sicko world, sexual intercourse means sexual intercourse. Gays qualify there.

Uh, so there's no difference between sodomy and sex?

So failure to consummation as a reason for divorce is totally irrelevant to the argument.

Nonsense. Consummation is considered to be an essential part of marriage.

[Ben Kenobi]

Lack of consummation is NOT grounds for divorce if the parties married with no expectation of consumation. While is is considered a fundamental aspect of many marriages (and therefore its lack is grounds for divorce (or to render the marriage a nullity)) it is not a fundamental part of all marriages.

Barring physical impediment, this argument doesn't work, as you noted in your post.

[gribbler]

So Obama, like Hoover is both ineffective and worthless at fixing the economy. Good to know it's still Bush's fault for Obama's devastatingly bad economic policies.

Wasn't the stimulus supposed to actually stimulate something other than his own bank account? I wonder how much he managed to skim off the top. I doubt we'll ever know.



He could have cut unnecessary domestic spending, the size of the government, lowered the tax burden on corporations, lowered the tax burden on individuals.

Instead, he's racked up deficits greater than anywhere in the free world. And the result? All that public spending, and the economy is still doing terribly. So many people have given up that they are out of the workforce entirely.



Which is why young people under 30 are seeing record lows in workforce participation dating back to the depression? It's actually the older folks who are doing proportionally better than every one else. The people who are really taking it in the shorts are the young folks who have the misfortune of coming of age in the Obama era.

Oh, and black folks too. Obama has put more black folks out of work than anyone since FDR.



Actually, all the gains have been given up. There were concrete real wealth gains, but now, things are back to the late 70s. A huge part of it is the inflationary policies that have massively eroded the value of the American dollar.

Real gdp per capita is not where it was in the 70s, idiot. Yeah, I'm sure the stimulus went into Obama's secret Swiss bank account nobody knows about. If you're advancing conspiracy theories like that you've pretty much given up on rational discussion. Claiming that labor force participation has decreased among the young does not address the fact that the population is aging, genius. Labor force participation among people over 65 is much lower than among people under 65. Obama did offer tax relief as part of his stimulus but apparently lowering taxes doesn't automatically make everything rosy again.

[gribbler]

Oh yes. It also mentioned he's there illegally right now. The school he supposedly works for NOW is "helping him" get a work visa.

http://apolyton.net/showthread.php/1...k-women/page11

How is that coming along?

[gribbler]

Gribbler:

At least Slaves had the opportunity to obtain their freedom by fleeing to the North.

http://apolyton.net/showthread.php/1...ck-women/page2

And that's why being a slave in the antebellum South was better than being here today, apparently.