Domination of Barbarians [Diplo Game] [Setup Thread]

[Sommerswerd]

@ Calanthian - I am on the road today so I can't respond in as much detail...

1. You make some valid points about the rules. I will read in more depth later. We still have time to debate and change rules.
2. We still have time to debate the Map as well

[DNK]

Regarding the score and no-score mod and territory and losing cities: you can probably adjust the no-score mod to only include population in the scoring. I think most people know that pop alone isn't the most important thing (though, given my play style, maybe I don't ), and it would still record lost cities (and whipping/drafting).

[Carthage (DoF)]

I would take a look at the world map of Rye's and Fall of Civilization. It has an enlarged Europe. I think it is wise to follow that idea..

[Kenshin2]

Or perhaps even a larger version than that. I don't know if Pitboss can handle GEM but that would certainly make for an epic game, and "shortage" on space is only having 3-5 cities.

[Sommerswerd]

At a reststop reading...

@ Elkad- Wow I don't know what to say. I am actually a little relieved you feel Africa South America and the islands are untouched. I added and changed so much on this map... Especially resources... I was a little worried you might say its too much. But if you don't even notice thats a good thing i guess.

So please make suggestions for what else can be added/changed. Keep in mind that localized resource Monopolies are a big part of the workings of the Map.

@ Calanthian - Are you saying that the Tier 1 starts seem too difficult?

And You trade for hapiness resources, or found colonies, or run Monarchy, or build buildings. Many paths to choose from.

The map has plenty of Iron and Horses, trade for it or expand for it.

[Sommerswerd]

About Rhyes Map and GEM- Can't enlarge Europe. It's supposed to be cramped. Making it larger would defeat the whole intent of the Map. The Tier 1 and 2 starts are supposed to be the most difficult by far. It's tough to see making any changes to make things easier for the Tier 1 starts in Europe. Theres Huge Iron coppers horses Marble Stone galore plenty of Pigs and the Fish are just off the charts.

Ozzy's CPU cant do a GEM, and I promised him i wouldnt go there, so thats not happening. The spacing in Europe is pretty much set.

[Exploit]

The point of the scenario was to create an unbalanced map. As has been pointed out there are plenty of examples of "balanced" world maps which have been played ad nauseum. It is time for something completely different. The game will be won or lost on your diploscore not on achieving a victory condition (plus you cannot be eliminated from the game). The stories of how some of the high Tier level Civs overcame their unbalanced cramped starts should make for more interesting reading then the victories over the endless hordes of barbarians of the lower Tier levels so the high levels inherently have an advantage in terms of actually winning the game by diploscore.

Everyone has a copy of the map and can see the starting situations in detail so they will know if they are going to be happy playing a particular civ. There are no players in the game that qualify as Tier 6 and yet those positions will need to be filled therefore some players from higher Tiers will get those easy civs to play so if you do not like your tier options just wait until a lower Tier civ that you are willing to play is available for selection. As long as someone is willing to follow the path of glory by playing the resource-challenged civs then there is no need to change the map. If no one is willing to claim a particular civ then the map should be modified until someone is willing to claim the civ.

On that note, if none of the more experienced diplogamers claims a high tier level civ then I assume we lowly tier players can choose the civ if we so desire, correct?

[Exploit]

Only that Exploit insisted he be put in tier 1 for DoE and then quit like 20 turns into the game.

That very bad DoE experience is why I haven't played Civ IV since and why I ranked myself lower Tier. In terms of SP games, I can beat Emperor level regularly. I have played 10 pitboss games(on this and other sites) and won 4 of them (including beating 2metraninja at least once).

On that record I felt tier 1 was appropriate in DoE however that game taught me that diplogames have a bunch of past precedent rules, conventions, exceptions and such that I have no way of knowing and which directly contradict the rules as written. In the DoE case I had even done my due diligence by posting my understanding of the rules and asking for clarification and I was told in no uncertain terms that my understanding was correct and yet the exact opposite ruling (about taking cities from Civs with 3 or less cities) was used and as such I got irreconcilably screwed! I make no apologies for resigning under the circumstances.

From a technical game perspective, I am not afraid to take one of the higher tier civs but based upon the fact that my diplogaming experience amounts to 20 turns, I felt a lower tier was more appropriate so that I do not get screwed over again by a misunderstanding of the diplogame rules.

If no one else claims the high tier civs then I will claim one.

[OzzyKP]

At a reststop reading...

@ Elkad- Wow I don't know what to say. I am actually a little relieved you feel Africa South America and the islands are untouched. I added and changed so much on this map... Especially resources... I was a little worried you might say its too much. But if you don't even notice thats a good thing i guess.

Hahah, it is ridiculously too much. Quite noticeable. But I'm up for something different.

[OzzyKP]

That very bad DoE experience is why I haven't played Civ IV since and why I ranked myself lower Tier. In terms of SP games, I can beat Emperor level regularly. I have played 10 pitboss games(on this and other sites) and won 4 of them (including beating 2metraninja at least once).

On that record I felt tier 1 was appropriate in DoE however that game taught me that diplogames have a bunch of past precedent rules, conventions, exceptions and such that I have no way of knowing and which directly contradict the rules as written. In the DoE case I had even done my due diligence by posting my understanding of the rules and asking for clarification and I was told in no uncertain terms that my understanding was correct and yet the exact opposite ruling (about taking cities from Civs with 3 or less cities) was used and as such I got irreconcilably screwed! I make no apologies for resigning under the circumstances.

From a technical game perspective, I am not afraid to take one of the higher tier civs but based upon the fact that my diplogaming experience amounts to 20 turns, I felt a lower tier was more appropriate so that I do not get screwed over again by a misunderstanding of the diplogame rules.

If no one else claims the high tier civs then I will claim one.

Well if you've won 4 regular pitboss games, and beat 2met, then yea, you should be tier 1 or 2. Just don't quit on us. Based on my list earlier, I"d suggest Beta get bumped down to tier 3, and you join tier 2.

[Sommerswerd]

Bah, double post... Stupid smartphone

[2metraninja]

I already said Exploit is strong at least as me, and it is flattering to see beating me as a measure for some serious civ MP achievement but this example where you won is not the best. If it is Mavericks Pitboss, I came there as replacement and took over a civ so long deserted, that it had 2 cities, while the others had like 10-12 and the second was so terribly placed, that I had to ask Niklas to raze it

Despite this, it was great game and you played it the best possible way - I have never saw a Spaceship built and launched in a single turn. Diplomatically you did it very well too - was playing both sides and securing NAPs with my alliance near the end and earning my sympathy, so I unleashed the nuclear hell on your 2 competitors and then when you launched I kept my word and not attacked you so you can win via the SS. Third place and the feeling that I have chosen the more worthy player from you and Nakor was still satisfying enough for me.

Bottom line is I think you not only play the game mechanics well, but are very experienced in the diplomacy too. You belong to tier 1 if I am going to be put there.

[Elkad]

The map is completely overboard in Eurasia. Fine, if that's the intent.

The point is that the whole southern hemisphere seems rather neglected in comparison.

Fish - Big disparity between the Hemispheres.
All the cold water areas need lots of Crabs. Alaska, Argentina, etc
Big jungles in South America and SE Asia should have a few forests. Hardwoods are valuable.

South Africa. More inland food (Deer? Flood plains?)
Pacific Islands. Sugar, Clams. And add a tile to the big island of Hawaii (or change the mountain tile to a hill?)
South America. Sugar, metals, corn. Northeast area (Venezuala/Guyana) needs Aluminum.
Australia. Metals (including Uranium), Coal. Inland Sheep and/or Wheat for more food (yeah, they are imported..)
New Zealand. Sheep?

I didn't count relative tiles, so not sure how Cereal Mills will stack up vs Sushi for food production. Cereal makes more food per resource, but I still suspect they are unequal.

The culture output from Sushi might be a bit out of hand too. Just the fish in Japan will make well over 50/turn before multipliers.

[Exploit]

Bottom line is I think you not only play the game mechanics well, but are very experienced in the diplomacy too. You belong to tier 1 if I am going to be put there.

I do not want to give away which Civ I am going to be, so place me in Tier 2 but if all the Tier 1 civs are not picked shortly then I will pick one of them. I have a few ideas on how to utilize these starting positions to my advantage.

[Sommerswerd]

Yes I forgot to post the suggestions for start strategies that I made. I will do that when i get home. Portugal and Spain in particular have tremendous potential, especially Portugal if shrewdly played. France has many strategic resources plus the wonder resources. No cause for complaint there... And Spain? They start with Mysticism... Almost unfair.

Australia has Uranium and Coal already. Resource-wise, Australia is the most diverse of any Continent. That is the strength. The weakness is the small size and the large barren outback region.

Alumminum is supposed to be Rare, use Aluminum Inc to get more.

[Exploit]

I just spent most of the day play-testing this map as various civs in SP (deity level) and my results were surprising. The Tier 1&2 civs were much easier against the AI then even the Tier 6 civs. The AI did not attack so it was easy to optimize development with so many resources to win the cultural battle for Europe and claim more resource rich land. In contrast the Tier 4 & 5 civs were much more challenging to get anywhere with so many barb attacks and difficult to build the Great Wall (which may be the most important wonder race in this game) before some European civ does.

Perhaps it was just the poor AI or my particular style of play but I do not think the Tier division accurately reflects the level of difficulties of the various civs. There is no guarantee that the crowded european civs will be more aggressive towards each other in a human game either (in fact it seems unlikely given that capitals cannot be captured) so central europe will appeal to Builders while the Fringe civs will appeal to WarMongers.

I recommend reserving the Tier 6 for the weakest players in the game as they could be quite unbalanced in the hands of skilled players (I particularly fear isolated Japan's REX capabilities) but open up the rest of the civs to whoever wants them based upon their play style (Warmonger or Builder).

[nabaxo]

Looking at my obligations lately, I'm afraid I have to bow out. Sorry guys. :/

[Exploit]

Ignore my earlier comment about the Great Wall. China seems to get it, if beelined, not sure how I got beat to it in my earlier attempt.

[Sommerswerd]

Looking at my obligations lately, I'm afraid I have to bow out. Sorry guys. :/

Glad we got that stuff straightened out... So you're still in then right?

[nabaxo]

I still doubt my free time for a game of this magnitude, I can play for now but I hope for a sub. I'd hate to resign to AI.

[Sommerswerd]

As promised, here is my outline of some suggested approaches when testing out the starts on the Map. Again, these are only suggestions, based on my limited time to work with each Civ. I am sure you will be able to come up with better and different strategies. As promised, here is my outline of some suggested approaches when testing out the starts on the Map. Again, these are only suggestions, based on my limited time to work with each Civ. I am sure you will be able to come up with better and different strategies.

Key - Aggressive Moves: Stuff I would at least consider to DoW you for if I was your neighbor, but others might not mind. It depends on the player.
Peaceful: Passive stuff that would probably be tolerated by even an Aggressive neighbor

I. Tier 1 - Western Europe Civs

1. France

1. Aggressive Moves
   1. Build Wonder to hard push Culture on all neighbors
   2. Squeeze a City in South to push Spain & Rome
   3. Violate England border to either
      1. Found city on Britain and/or;
      2. Found city in Iceland
      3. Found city in Ireland
   4. Violate Netherlands border to either
      1. Colonize Scandinavia or;
      2. Colonize Western Asia
   5. Violate Portugal (& England) & possibly Spain border to either
      1. Colonize North Africa or;
      2. Declare War & capture a City that is already in Africa
   6. Violate German Border to found city in Western Asia
2. Peaceful Moves - NONE

1. Spain

1. Aggressive Moves
   1. Found Religion to hard push Culture on all neighbors
   2. Build Wonder to hard push Culture on all neighbors
   3. Declare War on Portugal to prevent them from
      1. Working tiles (that speed expansion) or;
      2. expanding to Africa
   4. Colonize North Africa near Portugal Rome Greece or Arabia
   5. Found city in Sardina to push culture on Rome
2. Peaceful Moves
   1. Colonize North Africa near Spain

1. Portugal

1. Aggressive Moves
   1. Build Wonder to hard push Culture on Spain
   2. Declare War on Spain to prevent them from
      1. Building a Wonder
      2. Working tiles (that speed expansion) or;
      3. expanding to Africa
   3. Colonize North Africa near Spain
2. Peaceful Moves
   1. Colonize West African Coast

II. Tier 2 - Peninsular Europe Civs

1. Netherlands

1. Aggressive Moves
   1. Build Wonder to hard push Culture on France and Germany
   2. Found city in England
   3. Colonize Scandinavia
   4. Violate France, England and Portugal border to Colonize Africa
2. Peaceful Moves
   1. Colonize West Asia
   2. Found a city in Iceland

1. Rome

1. Aggressive Moves
   1. Build Wonder to hard push Culture on all neighbors
   2. Found city in Sardina to push culture on Spain
2. Peaceful Moves
   1. Found City in Southern Italy
   2. Colonize North Africa

C. Greece

1. Aggressive Moves
   1. Found City on Suez canal to push culture on Arabia
   2. Colonize Northeast Middle East to cut Arabs & Byzantines off
   3. Colonize Tigris-Euphrates River Valley
2. Peaceful Moves
   1. Found City in Crete
   2. Colonize Egypt
   3. Colonize North Africa

III. Tier 3 – Eastern Europe Civs
A. Germany

1. Aggressive Moves
   1. Settle Southeast to
      1. cut off HRE and/or;
      2. cut off Ottomans
2. Peaceful Moves
   1. Start settling Northeast of Capital
   2. Start settling East of capital

B. Ottomans

1. Aggressive Moves -NONE
2. Peaceful Moves
   1. Settle Northeast

C. Holy Rome

1. Aggressive Moves - NONE
2. Peaceful Moves
   1. Settle Northeast

IV. Tier 4 - Frontier Civs
A. Russia

1. Aggressive Moves - NONE
2. Peaceful Moves
   1. Beeline to Archery, build 7 Archers send 4 to found new city, rinse, repeat
   2. Tech to BW or AH then Expand to get strategic resource

B. Persia

1. Aggressive Moves - NONE
2. Peaceful Moves
   1. Beeline to Archery, build 7 Archers send 4 to found new city, rinse, repeat
   2. Tech to AH or BW then Expand to get strategic resource

C. Byzantines

1. Aggressive Moves
   1. Claim Suez Canal to Block Arabia from Africa
2. Peaceful Moves
   1. Expand into Middle East

V. Tier 5 - Isolated Civs
A. China

1. Aggressive Moves - NONE
2. Peaceful Moves
   1. Beeline to Archery, build 7 Archers send 4 to found new city, rinse, repeat
   2. Beeline to Great Wall

B. Arabia

1. Aggressive Moves
   1. Settle North to cutoff Byzantines
2. Peaceful Moves
   1. Beeline to Archery, build 6 Archers send 3 to found new city, rinse, repeat
   2. Beeline Great Wall
   3. Beeline SH

C. Vikings

1. Aggressive Moves -NONE
2. Peaceful Moves
   1. Beeline to Archery, build 6 Archers send 3 to found new city, rinse, repeat
   2. Settle Scandinavian Peninsula
   3. Beeline to SH
   4. Beeline to Great Wall

VI. Tier 6 - Island Civs
A. Japan

1. Aggressive Moves - NONE
2. Peaceful Moves
   1. Fully Settle Japan
   2. Colonize Korea
   3. Colonize Oceania/Polynesia
   4. Colonize Indo-China
   5. Colonize Kamchatka

B. England

1. Aggressive Moves
   1. Build Wonder to hard push Culture on France
2. Peaceful Moves
   1. Fully Settle Britain
   2. Found city in Iceland
   3. Beeline to SH

C. Celts

1. Aggressive Moves - NONE
2. Peaceful Moves
   1. Fully settle Ireland
   2. Found city in Iceland
   3. Beeline to SH

[Exploit]

It has been 38 hours since the Tier 1 selection began and so far only 1 civ seems to have been chosen. What can we do to speed up the process? I would have thought the whole selection process could have been done by now. Perhaps every 8 hours or so release the next Tier of Civs and everyone can select on a first come first serve basis?

Or perhaps release the Tier 6 civs and have anyone who considers themselves a weaker player start the selection? Work both extremes towards the middle (i.e. Tier 1 & 6 are available to start once tier 1 is picked then Tier 2 is released similarly once Tier 6 is picked then Tier 5 is released).

[OzzyKP]

I guess go ahead and grab a Tier 1 civ Exploit.

[Sommerswerd]

The map is completely overboard in Eurasia. Fine, if that's the intent.The point is that the whole southern hemisphere seems rather neglected in comparison.

My approach was to put alot of food in Eurasia, and leave most of the happiness resources for expansion and colonization. Eurasia has an abundance, because Eurasia is where everybody starts. The European civs especially need alot of strategic resources in their starts because of the possibility that you may be fighting someone with only your capital as a source of units. the Southern hemi is not neglected at all, far from it, But I can see what you might be talking about... mainly the difference in food resources.

Fish - Big disparity between the Hemispheres. All the cold water areas need lots of Crabs. Alaska, Argentina, etc

With seafood, I wanted a food resource that would create larger, more important but also higher risk coastal cities. This was to make Navy more powerful and dangerous. Now in choosing what resource to give, I knew that going full boat on seafood would also tank the value of seafood as a trade resource all the way until Sushi Co arrived. So I thought the best way to counter this, was to pick one seafood resource to be the workhorse, so that the other two could retain some trade value. I decided that Fish would be the workhorse resource, because fish gives more food than crab or Clam.

So, based on your suggestions, I will add more Fish to the Southern Hemisphere

Big jungles in South America and SE Asia should have a few forests. Hardwoods are valuable.

OK, good point, however, China already has a huge advantage with all that food and land and starting with an exposed Stone. I cant give China more chops on top of that, it would be too much.

So based on your suggestions I, mixed some Forests into the South American Jungle. I was going for about a 70/30 Jungle to Forest ratio.

South Africa. More inland food (Deer? Flood plains?)

I thought a long time about that. However, what I find, is that giving Africa additional food resources will give too much GNP when you start working those Gold/Gem mines. There are spots in Africa where you would have the equivalent of 7 and 8 fully grown cottages, if only you had the food to work them. Now once you get a food Corporation in the city that's fine. We will be in the Modern ages and city populations will be exploding everywhere. But in the early game, I think that was just going to give too much early GNP. So the deal with Africa, is, you can claim the Gold and Gems for trade and some GNP, but you can't actually work all the mines because of the limited food.

Pacific Islands. Sugar, Clams.

See my comments about seafood. And giving a 1 tile island a sugar doesent do much, IMO since you have to put the city on the resource. Still, I did add some sugar, Bananas, and fish to the pacific Islands that were barren

And add a tile to the big island of Hawaii (or change the mountain tile to a hill?)

Done. I left it a Mountain originally, (because its a Volcano IRL, but really that doesent matter for Game purposes), and added that pig tile. So went ahead and also reduced the mountain to a hill

South America. Sugar,

Are you serious??? I almost felt like you didnt even look at the map when I read that... Look again at South America...

metals,

Again, look at South America again. Now If you mean Strategic Metal, then no, that's a waste. By the time Civs are arriving in South America strategic metal will be obsolete except for corporations. I only added it to North America to make those worthless desert hills more useful without adding food to them. And there is already plenty of strategic Metal available on the Map for the Corporations

corn.

I didnt want Corn to compete with South America's Sugar monopoly too much. I also didn't want South America to compete with North America's Corn Monopoly too much. Also, I dont want South America to grow too fast when colonized. Its already almost all grassland, Adding Corn and the seafood you suggested might make South America too powerful, but we can try it anyway. I will just add some more fish.

Northeast area (Venezuala/Guyana) needs Aluminum.

Aluminum is supposed to be rare on this Map to make the Aluminum Corporation more valuable. I originally went with zero Aluminum, and then decided that was too powerful for the one civ who founded the corporation. I also worried about what would happen in the HQ city got razed before building any franchises anywhere else, so I added a few sources in both hemishperes

Australia. Metals (including Uranium), Coal. Inland Sheep and/or Wheat for more food (yeah, they are imported..) New Zealand. Sheep?

Australia has all metals including Uranium. Copper is in Tazmania I would like to preserve the old world with a Monopoly on Sheep so I added more fish to Australia and New Zealand

I didn't count relative tiles, so not sure how Cereal Mills will stack up vs Sushi for food production. Cereal makes more food per resource, but I still suspect they are unequal.

there is definitely more Fish than Corn or Wheat or Rice but there is more of any one of those 3 than there is of Crab or Clam. Also, there is probably more combined Ceral Mills food than Fish alone for sure. Even if there is more Sushi food than Cereal Mills food, remember that the Sushi food is constantly imperiled because its in the water, while the land food is safer. The main point is that the food corporations will produce a very interesting population explosion right at the beginning of the Modern era.

The culture output from Sushi might be a bit out of hand too. Just the fish in Japan will make well over 50/turn before multipliers.

Remember that Sushi is not the only game in town for Cultural Corporations. Construction Co. and Jewelery Co. both have potential for hefty cultural output. Again, those who get the Corporations will be fine vis a vis the others. Those who do not will be in a tough spot, but that is the point. You have all game to plot and plan, and colonize, and strategize and make treaties etc, to get ready for the Corporate invasion

[Sommerswerd]

It has been 38 hours since the Tier 1 selection began and so far only 1 civ seems to have been chosen. What can we do to speed up the process? I would have thought the whole selection process could have been done by now. Perhaps every 8 hours or so release the next Tier of Civs and everyone can select on a first come first serve basis?

Or perhaps release the Tier 6 civs and have anyone who considers themselves a weaker player start the selection? Work both extremes towards the middle (i.e. Tier 1 & 6 are available to start once tier 1 is picked then Tier 2 is released similarly once Tier 6 is picked then Tier 5 is released).

Sorry, I was out of town all day yesterday and today wife has been doing everything in her power to deny me from Civ. I also had to install a new router today. There was also an issue with one of the players dropping and then coming back after some convo... Anyway, I will start releasing the next Tiers now, and hopefully get them all done tonight... Hopefully...

[OzzyKP]

One quick suggestion about the map, I'd recommend switching the start spots for the Ottomans and Byzantines. The Turks came from out east, no one has a better claim to the site of Constantinople then the Byzantines.

[Sommerswerd]

One quick suggestion about the map, I'd recommend switching the start spots for the Ottomans and Byzantines. The Turks came from out east, no one has a better claim to the site of Constantinople then the Byzantines.

I thought about that, and you are right of course. (Don't forget that Istanbul and Constantinople are essentially the same city though.)

The reason I put Ottomans inside and Byzantines outside is because Otts have stronger leader traits. Both civs are IMP which is especially strong for a frontier Civ in this game, but the Otts also are PHI, which IMO makes them too strong to give such easy access to the frontier IMO, not to mention the resources in Egypt. I mean they can still get it from where they are, they just have to work harder for it. So ultimately, I put Ottomans inside and Byzantines Outside to steer Otts away from Africa. That doesent mean the player will take the bait obviously, but it will just be a little more difficult for them.

[Sommerswerd]

Speaking of which, I am now thinking that Catherine might be better for Russia on this Map?

Peter has the best overall traits, but given the Russian start, Catherine is (IMP/CRE) which is absolutely perfect for REX .

This Question is mainly for Ozzy, but if anyone else has tried out the Russian start or has any thoughts I'd like to hear them.

[OzzyKP]

I forget who, but one of them is creative/imperialist. That seems ideal.

[damnrunner]

Dumb question - I am not getting the test map file to open. How is one supposed to do this?