Domination of Barbarians [Diplo Game] [Setup Thread]

[Sommerswerd]

In a contested border (culture fight), being forced to give a city back will hurt a lot. As you'll lose all your culture in it and the surrounding 8 tiles, even if some of the culture came from your own cities.

True, but losing a city that you built and developed hurts alot more than giving back a war booty city, right? And destroying all the cultural buildings in a culture battel is a good enough prize in and of itself. FYI, I think liberating cities works differently than gifting with respect to how much culture of your's that the city retains but I will test that to be sure.

So what happens in a multiple opponent war?
Player A attacks Player B and captures a city.
Player C declares on player A and captures the same city.

Can B take the peace and get the city back, even though he isn't at war with player C?

Yes. For clarification, check the amended rule in my prior post.

Curious (not interested in starting still, no), are you going to mod in something that lets you settle cities 2 tiles from another? That was quite a popular idea in DoE1 iirc.

IIRC that Mod was not implemented in DoE. Remember the controversy because someone couldn't found a city 2 tiles away and they were complaining because Paris was 2 tiles from London, but then we realized that it was just because they were on different landmasses....

I had applied for tier 3 and only if it becomes too crowded, I'd move rather to 2 than to 4. My diplomacy game experience is practically zero.

When the time comes, you will be able to pick for yourself. Eveyone will be on their honor not to pick some cake walk Tier.

When picking, use the guide in the OP first to decide what Tier you are in. If you still are not sure use the questionaire. Do not use a comparison of yourself versus other players, or your gut instinct

[Toni]

Still no lucky N18?

[Kenshin2]

Though I really shouldn't... I want to join! This is like the perfect game for me. I love the colonization part of terra maps. Put me in Tier 4.

[Sommerswerd]

And we're off gentlemen! Welcome Kenshin2! Glad you changed your mind

As soon as I get home I will be posting the Map (without Mods) and I will get a Organization/UN Thread up with the Mod, complete rules and the anonymous IDs, plus a Story thread with a nice little backstory to get us started.

[Sommerswerd]

I have started setting up the anonymous IDs. I will start with Tier 1 and work my way down France and Spain are ready to go, working on Portugal, but first I will see about posting the Map.

[Black Knight 427]

When do we pick our civs?

[Calanthian]

@Sommerswerd:
I think it is not wise to remove a tested Pittboss approach (the double move rules) and exchange them for a complete new set of rules. Honestly it does make me a lot less eager to join.

Then if I go into detail in these proposed changes:

(Added to Doublemove rules)

1. On the turn when War is declared, the attacker is free to capture cities. On the next turn, the attacker must wait for the defender to log in at least once, prior to capturing any additional cities. Once the defender has logged in at least once, the attacker may resume capturing cities, in all following turns
2. No-Login Defense - The turn after the defender announces (in game threads, by PM to opponents and in-game message to opponents) that they are using the no-login defense, no one may capture any cities from the defender. If the defender logs in on any turn after the turn they invoke the no-login defense, then they lose the right to the defense for the rest of the continuous War. Defenders can not invoke the no-login defense if they captured any cities during the war.
3. If an attacker takes cities, after the defender announces they are using the defense, then the defender is entitled to immediate 10 turn peace, from the violator, and any wrongfully captured cities must be immediately returned, regardless of who currently owns the city. If the city was razed, the defender is entitled to either (a)choose between one of the attackers non-Capital cities to recieve as compensation, or (b) recieve 100% of attackers GNP for 10 turns. The defender is entitled to know what the GNP is before choosing. Defenders may log-in to collect the penalty without losing their right to the defense. Defenders may not fraudulently induce city capture and then invoke this rule.
   
4. If you are protecting your cities by intentionally refusing to log in, your attacker is not allowed to induce you to log in with a fraudulent offer of peace.

No login defense; 5 things I don't like:

1) IT DOESN'T SIMPLIFY THINGS, it makes things a lot harder, with a lot more discussion on the rules in-game (as there are many situations which can't be handled before they arrise)
2) for me there cannot be an option that someone chooses not to fight war. War is brought upon you, there is no choice in that.
3) When someone uses the no login defense he only can lose what he lost in the first turn of the war: THERE ARE A LOT OF WARS WHERE NOTHING IS LOST IN THE FIRST TURN (if culture borders are more than 2 tiles from city, then this is the case).
4) If a city must be returned after being captured by the attacker, it has still a huge amount of damages, while there is no fine to be paid.
5) The fine for razing a city:
- in GNP there is also a huge cultural part: you forget this..
- forcing to give one of their non-capital cities: also a lot of situations in which case this can have advantages for either attacker or defender.

This rule does not apply to situations where allies or friends are cooperatively declaring War and capturing each other's cities for convenience purposes (like to destroy a city in a poor location).

This doesn't belong in a diplo game. In a diplo game allies and friends shouldn't be declaring war, stealing each other's tech etc. Your rules are resulting in "too gamey" conduct.

Measured War
(additions/changes)

1. Once a Civ has 10 cities total, they are considered a Major Nation, and can ask for Major Measured-War (MMW). Any Civ can ask for Standard Measured War (SMW), regardless of size, and any Defender can ask for Defender's Measured War (DMW) regardless of size.
   1. Major Measured War (for Major Nations only)- Any turn after a Major Nation is attacked, they can ask for the attacker’s terms for immediate peace. This should be done in-character. The attacker can’t attack any of the defender’s cities until he responds in-character. He has to ask for something that the defender can actually give and it has to be possible to give it either before a peace treaty is accepted or during the 10 turn peace treaty. If the defender accepts and does what the attacker asked for, peace must be accepted. If the defender refuses, war may go on 5 more turns, then, 10 turns peace must be accepted.
   2. Standard Measured War (for all Nations) -Any Civ that loses 5 or more different cities in a continuous period of war is entitled to invoke an immediate 10 turn peace with any Civ who he is a war with. An attacker who invokes this rule must return all cities he captured in the war to the Civs he captured the cities from, unless they refuse to take them.
   3. Defenders Measured War (for all defender Nations) - Any turn after a Nation is attacked, they can call for Defender's Measured War- War may continue for 10 turns. After 10 turns, a 10 Turn peace treaty must be accepted, and the attacker must give 3 (if available) of defender’s captured cities back to the defender. The attacker chooses which cities to give. However, if the attacker took the Defender’s Capital in that war, he must return it. If the cities are available, but no longer in the attackers possesion, the Civ who currently has them must return them. If the attacker lacks 3 cities to return because of razing them, the attacker must give 500 gold per razed city over the course of the 10 turns peace. If he is unable to do this, he must give 3 of his own non-Capital cities of the defenders choosing. If the Defender has captured any cities in the War, he can not invoke Defender's Measured War, until the cities are returned to the parties the cities were captured from, or refused by those Civs.
   4. Only 1 Measured War rule may be applied at a time.

The old measured war rules were better than these. You try to regulate everything you can think of, but that just can't be done. It makes things overly complex and it will result in a lot of discussion on what is fair..

[Calanthian]

2. I thought about what you said and looked at Europe again. I can say now that there is enough room for all the Europeans to squeeze 3 cities together with all their small crosses or BFCs touching the capital. But it will be a really tight squeeze, especially for the Tier 1 Civs (which is why they are Tier 1). If that makes you uncomfortable, I suggest picking a latter Tier team that has more space. The earlier Tiers have higher resource/ lower space starts. That is the point of having unequal starts, so different skill levels can be competitive.

Europe sounds really too cramped..
if there is the possibilty to just squeeze in 3 cities before game start, you can be sure that there are civs who will have less than these 3 cities when the game actually is being played.

3. What you are describing that you want to do "Early economic build up... then later colonial expansion" sounds very much like a Tier 6. If that is the strategy that you have already committed to emotionally, then go with one of those. If you also want to add the "while keeping neighbours and barbs at bay" parts, then great that is Tier 4 and 5, pick one of those. There is plenty of room for different strategies and paths to victories in this game. Also remember, just because you have a grassland pig doesn't mean you have to pasture it, especially if Pig is plentiful and you dont need it for trade. Maybe a cottage would be more useful... go for it. The European starts will generally have way more resources than you can use. You have to make choices about them.

1. The tiers are related to skill level; not to preferred gaming approach. Every game position must have multiple paths to victory. If you cut off some paths by making the position too cramped, then you are just killing gaming fun.

2. Players should be assigned a tier, not being able to choose their tier. I think the list Ozzy made is quite accurate about skill levels of the ones involved.

[Sommerswerd]

@ BlackKnight - You gotta look at the Map before you pick your Civ buddy!

Anyway, Here is the Map:
DoB Test Map.rar

And anyone who is wanting to go Tier 1. France and Spain Accounts are available. I am moving to the Tier 2 accounts tommorow. Please remember to PM me from the Anonymous account ONLY if you are claiming these Civs, otherwise I will know who you are and your anonymity will be lost

I will post a Org Thread with all this stuff in one place soon. I will be out of town most of tommorow, but I hope to get this all up and ready this weekend.



@ Calanthian- Look at the Map. If you feel Europe is too cramped for you, consider picking a civ outside of Europe.

1. Exactly, I agree. The cramped starts are intentionally cramped (the OP talks at length about this, the whole scenario, the rules, everything is based on it... we're not changing that) and all starts have multiple paths to Victory. When you say "too cramped"... Too cramped for what? I have tested all the starts and it is possible to have a top score in the early game with all civs against Deity AI. What more can I say?

I have only suggested approaches to starting out. How you acheive Victory is entirely up to you. Remember that victory in a diplogame is from diploscore, not Space Race, or Conquest etc... I understand that you want prefer to pursue a garden variety CE, and that it will be complicated to do that on this Map. But that is only one path and it has has nothing to do with "multiple paths to victory." The starts are only about the early game... "Victory", especially in a diplogame, has very little to do with your start. When you keep saying "there must be multiple paths" it is sounding more and more like you really mean "there must be a CE path, where I can quickly cottage all my land like I want."

Anyone can cottage all they want If you want cottages then pick the civ that you can cottage spam the best with. Let others pick what they want.

2. This back and forth we keep having is the perfect indication of why I can't assign civs. If I assign you to a civ where you can't cottage spam, then you will say I am "killing the gaming fun" for you. I want you to pick the civ that best suits your level of skill, desire for challenge etc. I don't want you unhappy with your start from the very beginning. Pick what makes you happy, and let others do the same. The starts are not being changed, its time to get going. Everyone is on his honor to pick a skill-level appropriate civ. And Remember, you can pick a civ and then walk all the way across the map to where you want to start. The map intends for some Europeans to relocate eventually. That is why I am giving you the Map.

[Kenshin2]

I agree with Calanthian. I didn't want to rock the boat being the last to join, but if he is bringing it up I will put my two cents in. I agree with all the things he said. I also want to point out the bit that stood out to me as really bad, and didn't get as much attention in Calanthian's post, is the bit about choosing another city as 'compensation' for a razed city. You cannot simply trade cities like they are goods. In real life cities are places with history and meaning to its inhabitants and country. This rule is the same as if when the British razed Washington D.C. we had demanded York from them. Its just unrealistic.

[Sommerswerd]

Thanks Kenshin2, I would like to ask both you and Calanthian to check out the very first paragraphs of the first and second underlined section in the OP for the game. I say this because that section all the way back in the OP deals directly with both issues you guys are raising. Here it is for reference:

Map

The map will be based on the game’s basic 18 Civ Earth Map, with edited resources, edited starts and some minor terrain tweaks. The Map will be made available for all potential players to view prior to the game, and the I welcome any and all suggestions for making the map more fun, more balanced, more playable, more competitive, prettier, etc. However, be careful about offering suggestions based on “realism” or making the game more “realistic.” Realism can be very subjective, and sometimes has little merit in-and-of itself. Instead, focus on things like fun, competitiveness, sustainability and playability. Above all, when making suggestions, keep the following goals in mind:


--Map Goals
1. Colonization – One of the primary goals of this map is to encourage players to Colonize other parts of the map and compete for colonization opportunities, rather than just focusing on the land around their capitals. Note: Keep this in mind when making suggestions. “Portugal needs more space” is not helpful, because giving them more space defeats the goal of encouraging them to Colonize other areas.

[Sommerswerd]

Tier 1 Anonymous accounts are now availabe. Remember to take a look at the Map before picking one. And remember to CHANGE YOUR PASSWORD after claiming your Civ.

Anonymous ID: France (DoB)
Password: France

Anonymous ID: Spain (DoB)
Password: Spain

Anonymous ID: Portugal (DoB)
Password: Portugal

[France (DoB)]

Vive la France!

[Calanthian]

* Portugal and Spain: Both will be able to only found one city. And Spain will have 9 land tiles and Portugal 8.

* Resource placement: if you want to make it possible to move your capital and become a regional power somewhere else, then resource placement should be changed. No iron and horses in Africa and America. Some European states have no access to horses. There are virtually no happy resources in Europe. So even making that single city big isn’t an option.

[Elkad]

We are supposed to colonize, but other than eastern North America, it doesn't look like resources have been touched much at all once you leave Eurasia.

Africa, South America, Australia, Western North America and all the islands look pretty barren compared to the rest of the map.