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  • #76
    Originally posted by asdfboo
    I have to agree with the poster above me that the actions of one individual soldier shouldn't reflect on the whole. In every industry, there are people who aren't right in the head. This isn't a result of their training, or their job. Some people are just insane. I've seen other incidents like this, and while it is always a tragic thing, it is not a result of their training. Your logic that "If one does it, more will follow" has no base in reality.
    As for your thought that nuclear arms render all convential forces null and void, I believe this is also flawed. I cannot honestly see and of the leaders of the countries you mentioned launching nuclear weapons. The leaders are simply too intelligent to unleash such a devastating weapon upon the world, unless it would do more to save lives than end them. WWII showed us the devastation of nuclear war, and I don't think any leader would want to see that happen again.
    As for the soldiers; I can't say that I approve of the marine putting the American flag on Saddam's statue. That was an insensitive thing to do. However, you may not know it, but many of the leaders in Iraq aren't idiots. They don't let their soldiers drive around with American flags flying from their humvees. As with your last argument, because one soldier does something does not mean others will follow in suit. I would caution you from saying American soldiers lack common sense. Did you not see the scene in Najaf, where soldiers, when trying to meet with a local Sheik, were confronted by locals who were afraid they were going to defile the local Mosque. Did they start firing wildly? No. Did they start shouting, and enflame the crowd? No. The Colonel had his men kneel, and lower their weapons. When the crowd still refused to let them through, he told his men to go on and turn around, and leave.
    Does that sound to you like an inexperienced group of soldiers, with no common sense? Maybe you should see the other half of the picture before you stereotype the whole American Army.
    I did type a huge stunning reply to this, but then my PC overheated and turned itself off. So, in summary:

    A single soldiers actions shouldn't reflect on the entire army, however the USA has a dispraportionally large amount of these incidents. How often do you let a 2 year old drive a car? Not often? Simply because they aren't mentally stable enough. This same sort of logic should apply to enrollment in the USA's armed forces. Someone must have picked up a difference in this persons attitude and personality.

    Yes, if a nations sovereignty was invaded to such an extent that a country was hanging on a limb, they would launch all their nuclear weapons. The argument that they wont is complete nonsense. Otherwise, why would anyone have nuclear weapons if nations "cannot honestly see any of the leaders of the countries I mentioned launching nuclear weapons"?

    Driving around Iraq in humvees with American flags on? I've seen plenty of it personally.

    Soldiers lack common sense? Well, I'd say that some of them do. And when you say "some" in reference to over 1,000,000, that's a lot of people without proper common sense. Note that the colonel ordered them to do that, the soldiers didn't use their own initiative.

    I have seen the entire picture of the American army, reading first hand reports, both good and bad, of the equipment, training and actions of the American armed forces. I have seen enough to make a judgement.
    Last edited by PMKeates; July 20, 2003, 09:38.
    Britain - something 1/4 of the world was once part of, unficiation on a very grand scale.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Hell Kitty
      Personally, I don't want to see the inclusion of America in an expansion any more than I'd want to see the inclusion of Australia. These nations are too young, and wouldn't make any sense in the context of the game, other than the "Yay, I get to play as my own nation" nationalistic kind of way.
      Too young to make any sense in the context of the game? Pardon me, but Aztecs and Romans were there a lot shorter period of time (note: in game terms!). USA has existed the last four (out of eight) ages, at least as a colony of Britain and France.

      One way to implement USA would to the include a nation representing the native American indians (for example Iroquis or Sioux, or just simply Americans) which would then change into USA on the enlightenment age. Of course, if America name would be used (like in Civ3), that would not be necessary.

      Just my 2 cents.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Exel


        Too young to make any sense in the context of the game? Pardon me, but Aztecs and Romans were there a lot shorter period of time (note: in game terms!). USA has existed the last four (out of eight) ages, at least as a colony of Britain and France.

        One way to implement USA would to the include a nation representing the native American indians (for example Iroquis or Sioux, or just simply Americans) which would then change into USA on the enlightenment age. Of course, if America name would be used (like in Civ3), that would not be necessary.

        Just my 2 cents.
        You've a good point there. Simply using "Americans" would work, especially renaming to the "USA" in the Enlightenment Age.

        I personally would like to see an American nation in this game, even simply to allow some proper Cold War type scenarios to arise in every day gaming...
        Britain - something 1/4 of the world was once part of, unficiation on a very grand scale.

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        • #79
          Too young to make any sense in the context of the game? Pardon me, but Aztecs and Romans were there a lot shorter period of time (note: in game terms!).
          As I said before, it's a "what if" scenario, in that we can see how the Aztecs and Romans fare had they lasted longer. You cannot do the same in reverse.
          Oh, and when I say "too young", I'm not talking about how long that particular nation lasted, but rather at what point in history it began. America is much younger than in this regard than all the other nations in the game.

          USA has existed the last four (out of eight) ages, at least as a colony of Britain and France.
          Exactly, America was never an ancient (or perhaps just really old ) civilisations, it was a colony of a civilisation that is already represented in the game. Now, if Rise of Nations had nations which could branch off into something else, (eg Europeans conquering North America/Canada/Australia = end of Native North American/Native Canadian/Aboriginal nations, Spanish conquering South America = end of Native South American nations, etc) then the inclusion of America would work, but Rise of Nations doesn't do offer any such feature. Maybe RoN2 will, but I don't see the game being transformed this much for an expansion.

          One way to implement USA would to the include a nation representing the native American indians (for example Iroquis or Sioux, or just simply Americans) which would then change into USA on the enlightenment age. Of course, if America name would be used (like in Civ3), that would not be necessary.
          It seems to me that when people talk about playing as America, they are referring to modern day Anglo-Saxon America. I could see them including one or two native American groups, but although their modern tech might be influenced by modern US tech, I don't see them suddenly "turning into" modern America, which would be rather insulting to native Americans. I see the city names as being native American in origin too, and the name "America" comes from Amerigo Vespucci, which has nothing to do with Native Americans at all.

          Anyway, to me, it seems that Rise of Nations is taking really old (as opposed to ancient, as the Aztec, Inca and Maya are hardly ancient when compared to the Romans of Egyptians), and creating a generic "ancient" timeframe with which to start in, so that your chose "nation" can "rise" to conquer the world. Rise of Nations doesn't factor in more modern nations that came about through "interference" with other countrys.
          Last edited by Hell Kitty; July 20, 2003, 13:14.

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          • #80
            Let's stop this America bad/good talk... For those who wants them in, you can talk about what Special bonuses/UU's you'd like them to have, and for those who don't want them in the game, you can start talking about which nations you'd like to see... This thread isn't a "What nations I would not like to see in the game" (If you want such thread, start it)

            I'd like to have them in the game, but they should start out as an indian tribe, which has some indian special units (Some horse unit?), where they later (Enlightment age? Don't know much about history) gets renamed into USA maybe, who might have the cavalry as special unit (?)

            And what about giving them some cheap plane an age earlier? (Afterall they invented it) this one is also an UU...

            One of their bonuses could be cheaper plane upgrades (or free?)
            This space is empty... or is it?

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            • #81
              I don't agree with the power to have a plane in Industrial. We definate where behind at that time (in WWI our pilots flew British and French planes because ours sucked so bad. Of course airborne UUs could work in VII and beyong.
              "War does not determine who is right, it determines who is left."

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              • #82
                Well... as already stated: I don't know much about history... I just know it was some Americans who invented the plane...

                And I'm not the kind of person who wants everything to be historically accurate, I'm just trying to make it a little different
                This space is empty... or is it?

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                • #83
                  I think the Wright Brothers were the first to fly successfully, but there were numerous Europeans in history to have come up with designs. I believe it was an English chap who designed the idea of the first modern plane, but I don't know if he ever had anything built.

                  Anyway, I can't really think of any more nations to include, I'm happy with what we've got, although I wouldn't mind if the present ones looked more unique, and would like it if the nations had unique units for every age.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Hell Kitty
                    I think the Wright Brothers were the first to fly successfully, but there were numerous Europeans in history to have come up with designs. I believe it was an English chap who designed the idea of the first modern plane, but I don't know if he ever had anything built.
                    Well... Da Vinci was the first one (from what I know) who had some detailed sketches of a Helicopter, so should we give the Romans the Helicopter in 16th century? (or whenever he lived)
                    This space is empty... or is it?

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by ADG


                      Well... Da Vinci was the first one (from what I know) who had some detailed sketches of a Helicopter, so should we give the Romans the Helicopter in 16th century? (or whenever he lived)
                      Yeah, Da Vinci had all sorts of sketchs for flying machines, but nothing really workable. I'm pretty sure it's this English chappy (whose name escapes my) who invented the concept of the modern plane.

                      Anyway, I think if and American nation was to be included (and I don't think there is any chance there will be ), I 'd like to see a unique aircraft carrier or some such.

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                      • #86
                        I also agree that India has to be in the add-on. It just cries out to me that there's no India in this game yet there's a Rome and a Greece - two civilizations with roughly equal influence from ancient through to present. And I'm not even Indian!

                        Arabs should be around too. They left the world a legacy of mathematics and religious thought, as well as some darn good coffee. They could have a bonus in selling oil at the market for a very high price.
                        "lol internet" ~ AAHZ

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by PMKeates


                          First off, I was not referring to friendly fire incidents in general, they are unavoidable. But rather the fact that some members of the American armed forces are just not right in the head. Don't say I'm wrong, unless you think that nutcase who threw a grenade into an American tent was in a state of perfect mental health. If one of the troops does it, who's to say they aren't more troops who would have snapped just the same?

                          I also did NOT need a lecture into the state of American defence forces. Your comparisons to land and air equipment of the Chinese and Russian armed forces was frankly a waste of time. In fact, comparison to any of the conventional forces of any nuclear power is pointless. How long do you think it would take for a war between Russia and the USA, China and the USA or even the UK and the USA to escalate to a nuclear state of affairs? To answer that question, not very long at all. When countries such as the UK have enough nuclear power to remove a vast majority of the American populous, whether the UK has the latest and greatest aircraft or the latest and greatest armour on its tanks (Although it does have the latter) is of no consequence.

                          P.S. - While your soldiers may have been polite and diplomatic (For the most part), some of your soldiers, I personally do not think, really understand what's going on. A shining example of that is when they draped the American flag over the head of a huge statue of Saddam Hussein. That was not a professional thing to do, and not something that people with true experience and even a little common sense would have carried out.
                          Oh, I see. You're just a moron. Carry on.
                          He's got the Midas touch.
                          But he touched it too much!
                          Hey Goldmember, Hey Goldmember!

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Sikander


                            Oh, I see. You're just a moron. Carry on.
                            Yeah Sikander, I agree. PMKeates doesn't seam to realise that it's not about "your soldiers" and "their mental health". Soldiers are only people, and last I looked, the entire world was populated with people. So what does that tell us? That you have morons all around the globe who don't understand what the hell is going on at all. Every army has potential tent-grenade throwers.

                            So when you see American soldiers draping American flags over Iraqi statues, don't come up with retarted arguments such as "I don't really think YOUR soldiers understand what's going on." By the looks of it, you don't either, so shut up already...

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Sikander


                              Oh, I see. You're just a moron. Carry on.
                              Whether you have the mental acumen to answer my post without talking rubbish is not on my conscience. Yes, a moron could have made that post, as it was not complicated. However, not being able to respond? That just makes you a plain old imbecile.
                              Britain - something 1/4 of the world was once part of, unficiation on a very grand scale.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by StampOnIt


                                Yeah Sikander, I agree. PMKeates doesn't seam to realise that it's not about "your soldiers" and "their mental health". Soldiers are only people, and last I looked, the entire world was populated with people. So what does that tell us? That you have morons all around the globe who don't understand what the hell is going on at all. Every army has potential tent-grenade throwers.

                                So when you see American soldiers draping American flags over Iraqi statues, don't come up with retarted arguments such as "I don't really think YOUR soldiers understand what's going on." By the looks of it, you don't either, so shut up already...
                                Well, last time I checked, a majority of the people of the world weren't under an intense training ritual in the worlds most powerful army - an army which has a reputation to consider. A reputation that more and more people are starting to doubt the credibility of.
                                Britain - something 1/4 of the world was once part of, unficiation on a very grand scale.

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