Beating the Toughest AI

[Grond]

I just decimated the French as Bantu. It was so lopsided that now I'm worried that Bantu are too powerful. I did have a rather nice set up, 3 large woods at my start town so I only needed 1 lumber mill, a big lake next to my second town and large mountains next to first and third town.

[Out4Blood]

In my limited experience, I have found that a good wood start is the most decisive thing, and a poor wood start means an early exit or a long, tough, come from behind win. Forking over 70 food that early in the game is just killer - it's like having 3 fewer villagers - which snowballs into an even bigger advantage later on.

Regarding Bantu, I've played them and won with them, and I suppsoe they fit my style somewhat, but I get hampered by the commerce cap. For eco-whores like me, British are a better play in the long run. I can always build the pyramids and get an extra +1 city.

However, I have noticed recently that as I go for bigger armies I begin running into the pop cap of 200. Which is very aggravating. One game I had to build Collossus just to make enough troops to push them back.

[rul3]

yeahhh. i agree with O4B. Plenty of wood early in the game is a definite...after the 2nd city go for a small mine...just to keep it raising steadily. Then as soon as the oil as available...gather this two a whole lot as possible....then rock the world with your attacking army yeehhaa

[Grond]

I definitely agree about the woods, those 3 and 4 wood starts are reminsicent of the "where the hell are my berries?" starts before they patched it. It would like to see a little less variation on the starting woods, one guy getting 3 and another guy getting 8 makes too much of a difference.

[Out4Blood]

Atlantic sea power is a nice map because you are almost guarranteed to get a nice 6-8 woodie start. My second town almost always has at least 2 8+ woodies and a 7+ mine, making that my econ city. That city alone usually pumps out +210 food, +480 wood and +240 metal.

BTW, I'm convinced that the AI cannot play sea maps. You're safe to boom and get fish going and protect with a few ships. Find his docks and lay siege to them (keep him from making ships) since the AI doesn't garrison. Game is pretty much over, despite the huge resource bonus they get on toughest. The AI just cannot keep up with your production when you own the seas early.

Even the AI will probably kill off all your fishing, ypu can quickly transition to fully upgraded farms and taxation to keep food and wealth maxed.

[Skanky Burns]

I have trouble on sea maps. I usually build 1 heavy ship immediately to explore, then the only ships that come out of the dock after that are fishing vessels. This is against a tough AI.

What sort of numbers of ships and types of ships would I need to keep the AI crippled?

[iamlod]

Haven't tried this, so it will prob need some adjusting to work well:

Build woodcutter camps from the start to stockpile wood and get a dock up ASAP. Build a few heavy ships and go to where you think your opponent will be (You can see generally where he is on the mini-map based on your starting position. (he starts ~opposite you)). And patrol around his shorelines looking for any costal cities. When you find any try to hang out and kill and citizens that attempt to build a dock (or tower for that matter).

I know this would take serious micro management, but, if you keep your ships moving, you should be able to keep him from getting naval power for a little while (hopefully long enough for you to get enough of a head start to control the seas).

You could try telling your ships to patrol around the continent your opponent is on and keep them on 'raid' stance to make your life easier.

However, for this to work, you're prob going to have to swich views to see what your ships are doing/finding every 10 sec or so. (Very annoying and would require much pause keying).

Has anyone tried anything like this?
I know it's very accident prone and would require much luck to pull off.
Comments? Changes? Ideas?

[tetley]

I'm convinced Coastal Fortresses win sea maps. Build a fort on the coast right next to your first dock (the AI has a thing for your first dock). You can build your dock far away, to try and make his ships travel your coastline which means you can tower up and make a gauntlet for him later.

Just do a guerrilla war with his ships. Go after him, when you get to half health run home. Eventually you accumulate enough ships that you can Bomb Ketch his docks; then he's dead. Civs with building attack bonuses, this isn't too difficult even on Toughest.

[solo]

Siege weapons are a cost effective way to ensure the demise of any AI ships approaching your own docks and fishing boats. On Toughest you want the AI to keep building replacement ships while you jump ahead in tech and commerce.

[tetley]

Agreed, but my luck hasn't been too good with Siege weapons vs. ships until Enlightenment Age, unless maybe I'm French. The setup time kills me.

[Out4Blood]

IMO, the key to sea maps is to get a dock up as early as possible and to max out your wood production. I usually only have 2 cities for a long time while I assert my dominance on the seas. On sea maps, the commerce techs are the most important as you need a high cap to allow for lots of wood, and then food/wealth as you make tons of fishing. Once I've got about 15 or so fishing boats I switch to military ships, making heavy, light and fire ships in a 2:2:1 ratio. I also use at least 2 docks, sometimes 3. The AI just cannot keep up. Then I do a number of things:

1. Build a city on his territory, if possible, so I can launch land attacks
2. Fill out my land with new cities so he cannot build on my land
3. Keep lots of ships on patrol around his shoreline to prevent new docks from going up
4. Patrol the waters between us to quickly sink any invasion force
5. Maximize my economy

Once you control the sea, there is not much the AI can do. Other than try for some sort of wonder win. But the AI is not smart enough to do that, nor does it optimize to counter your strategy (e.g., coastal forts, multiple docks, heavy wood production, etc.) 2-3 bomb ships are enough to reduce any buildings he puts up near the shore. In later ages, a few aircraft carriers are awesome weapons.

[Out4Blood]

Played a sea map game yesterday where I actually came close to losing. Had a bad wood start (4-slotter) and the toughest AI (Turks) got on the water before me. My first fishing boats were shot up by 2 triremes. When I finally got military ships, the AI had 3x more than me. Uh oh. I stayed off the water and boomed, while slowing making ships that were garrisoned. Around enlightenment age, I was able to finally defeat his navy and start making a few fishing boats, but by then I had an overwhelming econ advantage and he died swiftly. I'm gonna stop playing sea maps.

[Daemonlaud]

(on bad habits formed by turtling till Indust) Such as ... ? I haven't noticed anything I can't overcome, but maybe you have some insight I am too dense to pick up on. Please share.

To summarise, the bad habits are essentially every component of the strategy and playstyle - you will NEVER win a MP game against anything but a first time player if you are practised in such insular strategies.

Not being harsh or exaggerating, I mean you will never win

That's all. The comp doesn't get any smarter, and if it does something new you can react fairly quickly; a human opponent is a universe apart from this.


Any good duel game is puncuated by CONSTANT harassment, CONSTANT squabbling, pushing, rushing, expanding, raiding, feinting...and you have to juggle all this whilst trying to boom or tech or whatever it is you do in the safe confines of your deep territory.

Failure to hold up either end of the bargain will see you dead in spectacular ways you will not even begin to imagine till they happen to you

You just flat out can't learn this unless you force yourself to to against a comp, esp one that will stomp you in any even open combat (as toughest will do to anyone not an expert in micromanagement, since it will always out number you and prolly out micro you too), hence playing on tougher may in fact encourage strategies that are more viable against a thinking opponent.

[Tutankamun]

Hey, I downloaded those recs at the top of the thread, and they no longer work (assume it's because of a later patch?). All I saw was two games of someone getting stomped by the computer. In the middle of the game, it looks like the player just gave up - units stand around, dying of attrition.

Is it just me?

[Eyecare]

It's notaable that you can effectively minimize the AI's resource collection advantage at the two highest levels by constant and effective raiding. Since the AI typically garrison's it's entire population it gives you time to catch up. Additionally, you can almost negate it's advantage if you do an early Ancient rush.
Although it's much more of a challenge to win with less aggressive tactics I do agree with others who imply that playing MP is a whole different ballgame. Winning agains the AI on Tougher and Toughest is a good prep for but not a substitute for the challenges a human opponent can present.