Beating the Toughest AI

[Out4Blood]

Thought I might share one of my conquests over the toughest AI. This one is on nomad - I've gotten tired of the 3 chopper wood starts the comp gives me all the time! I built toward the center and was able to block in his expansion and keep him from planting too many cities. Then I just teched up and squeezed him, planting cities on his flank to keep him boxed in. This was an unusual blowout for the toughest AI.

I'm running about 50% against the toughest AI, but can't seem to break through and really stomp it good, yet. After watching the film, any of you with insight into how I can improve my game are free to post comments. BTW, this is on slow speed. My turtle comp just can't handle normal speeds. It lags out, so even planting farms is a chore and takes about 30 game seconds...

BTW, I noticed that the tougher AI gets 25% more resources than you do (base rate of 24 sec) and the toughest AI gets 50% more resources than you do (base rate of 20 sec). What you get in 30 sec, he gets in 20 sec.

[Grond]

Hard to compare because of the different settings. I play a lot more defensively at first, looked like a nice push to me though. Heres a typical game for me. I do like British, Commerece limit = power.

[Aginor]

Re: Beating the Toughest AI

Originally posted by Out4Blood

I built toward the center and was able to block in his expansion and keep him from planting too many cities. Then I just teched up and squeezed him, planting cities on his flank to keep him boxed in.

Stole your concept using the Bantu to set up the territory situation rapidly and FINALLY beat the Toughest AI last night. Basically I managed to keep up in ages within a minute of the comp's speed through Industrial and ran his nearest city over with tanks. As we all know the Auto Plant and Factory going up in now secured frontier territory is the kiss of death. Only had to nuke once - AI built up a 25 unit army near a lightly defended fortress on my border just out of bowshot. Didn't expect a push because he was losing his border city and extra units would have kept it interesting. He started shelling the redoubt with Howitzers, so I just nuked the army. One supply wagon went slinking back to his lines, the rest of the army was leveled...VERY satisfying

Won it with a Wonder victory having taken two cities and about to capture the third (behind my lines) and wheel around on the capital in the 38th minute. Conquest was assured, especially properly backed up with nukes and Info Age around the 40th...

Some observations:

I usually turtle until Industrial. I NEVER build Heavy Cav or upgrade, but for some strange reason start slamming out Cataphracts when I have a lot of spare metal and wealth mid to late Enlightenment I usually just build Statue the second it's available and put my capital on VQ with the rally point on the Statue (and building techs maxed) to slam it out so I can save the oil and build reinforcements when available. Played well, I'll hit Industrial 30 secs-1 min from when comp hits it and get the Statue no question. Which usually causes the computer to wake up and build some wonders with the mad production it gets, which is fine with me since I'm sending 20+ tanks and a few Artillery into his nearest city with no attrition, backed up by infantry to entrench....

The citizens from this are great for slamming up other useful wonders as well...Angkor Wat usually goes up if I'm not getting good inflow on Metal.

It seems that the AI cheats like this: It compares relative force strengths and sends the kitchen sink if it feels you're not ready for it. Best way to deal with this seems to be to build Terra Cotta very early - it permits an otherwise prohibitive force buildup very early on, because it disturbs your economy minimally. Then the AI doesn't come calling early, and you've got time to get things together. Terra Cotta is NOT the best wonder, the Statue dominates it, but I find it fills a need. Colossus is key with anyone other than Bantu, though extra Timber and Wealth never hurt anyone.

You've GOT to be a model of efficiency or you're toast...comp's going to double you up on the basic resources (except possibly oil) by Modern no matter what due to the insane collection advantage...you can only make up for it by being a better general and playing PERFECTLY, so make the most of what you've got to rely on...

If playing defensively, keep 2-3 cannon near any fortress you build for defensive purposes or city near the borders...comp likes to shell them, and it's hard to deal with in a fortress if you don't have a way to knock out the cannon. Only other solution is to hit him in the butt with 6-8 Light or Ranged Cav. BTW, a good trick is to have a couple Light Cav by the castle and send them forward a bit - comp masses just out of castle range, and what will happen is the foot soldiers will come chase the Cav units into bowshot range and get MASSACRED by the castle if you maxed it out on crossbowmen garrison This can permit you to deal with the Cannon if you're a bit shorthanded on taking out those Pikes...

I imagine if you could get some raiding squads in emeny territory in Medieval/Gunpowder it would enable you to keep up a bit better than I do with the comp on collecting resources. Not my style though, and I figure if he's got the kitchen sink to throw at me, God help me in HIS territory...

Anyone else notice that the comp doesn't know how to nuke? If I'm in a fight I'd rather hit something on the front lines and take out some troops than the other guy's farms near the capital...by Modern those go back up in 30 secs anyway.

Anyway, I'm off to go determine whether or not I'm starting to figure this out yet or if I just got lucky

[Aginor]

Yikes just finished spanking the AI...Terra Cotta didn't seem quite as useful this time (didn't hurt tho). Comp executed a rush on my Cap with four Heavy Inf, delaying progressing to Classical to do it. I was already in Classical, my Scout saw it coming so I spanked his rush force in the butt with Archers from a Barracks. He got a Merchant and a Citizen, but compared to time loss and cost of four Slingers...ouch.

So I played from the enviable position of leading the whole game. Put together a nice Fortress setup around fifth city on the frontier, bulked up with Terra Cotta and the initial 5 troop counterforce i built, when he showed at that city I dumped out Hussars like mad (he was Gunpowder when I was Enlightenment) and hit his artillery in the butt with the cavalry while pounding him with MY cannons. After I cleared out the expeditionary force, I hit his nearest city HARD while cranking out Cataphracts...that strat is just SO imbalanced, turning an even match into a killing...NEVER build and upgrade Heavy Cav, kids. Light Cav is so dirt cheap anyway.

Times were slow for age advances as I kept researching Commerce to keep Economy maxed at all times before advancing (until Industrial anyway). REALLY paid off later though, and I had that luxury because the comp lagged so badly...didn't have to slam out Age advances to not get whooped by superior firepower.

Offensive started to collapse after taking enemy city - he eventually threw stuff at me faster than I could handle, and I didn't have a lot of resources as I had just dumped 800 Food and Gold into the Statue...fortunately Statue hit JUST as my last few units were going down and after throwing 30 tanks into the fray it was a cakewalk from there. Never saw a tank even after he hit Industrial, won by territory in 36:40.

Getting a ton of Food and Wood fast has been the key for me...Metal is a #2 priority early. Researching those Commerce techs is HUGE...I've gotten in the habit of getting Science 2 before moving to Classical so I can get Commerce 2 with the first University I build, which really juices my economy.

Experiment with Fisherman if you're on a map with water...they just flat out ROCK, and you can build them during that one period during late Ancient and early Classical when your food supplies are REALLY short with just wood...if you get 3-4 fishermen on a lake it's cheaper resource wise than Farms for a much better return early...they're just amazing, and the key (along with a fast Market and Caravans) to getting Science 2 and thus getting your Commerce to level 2 ASAP. Without them my economy tends to struggle a bit early, taxation and caravans or no.

BTW, playing as Bantu - early build order is 2 Farms, 3 Citizens, Civics 1 (duh), Citizens until Woodcutter's is full, City, City, with Commerce 1 in there whenever exploration makes it available. Market, Dock and Temple as wood permits for wealth & Science 2, start on Woodcutters at 2nd or 3rd city to max out wood. Then advance age, build University, Commerce 2, Military 1, Barracks & Tower, research attrition, make troops if needed. Granaries and Lumber Mills where needed to max out, Mines when time permits, buying scholars (usually my strat generates enough to fill it immediately). 2nd University once I have the Wealth, Civics 2 & Commerce 3 next priorities for resources, then advance Age, picking up Military 2 when convenient and buying more scholars.

Hope this helps any newer players to get a fast start.

[solo]

I'm also giving it a try on Toughest vs. 3 random AI opponents playing Survival of the Fittest.

I have managed a few wins, but am finding the AI resource gathering advantage hard to compete with. Most of the AI easily boom ahead while still managing to field some impresssive armies, so I have also been stomped quite a few times, especially when facing more than one early AI attack in succession.

I was wondering what settings you others are using in your games?

[Aginor]

Yikes? 4 player Survival? That's potluck - if two AIs gang up on you, you lose...enough Risk games have taught me that lesson...

I am now decisively smashing the AI every time now in one-on-one using the Bantu and I will post a guide as soon as I feel I can explain the strategy in a very concrete plan. Basically I build to the middle FAST and try to force the AI to attack a single point on my front lines at a fortress which is getting constant reinforcement from Terra Cotta. AI uses the same basic strategy every time until Industrial to attack a city/fortress, and when you see a unit you know what you're getting. Lots of ways to deal with it, I'm a lousy general so Terra Cotta gives me a force advantage which basically gets me through to Industrial. At that point I slam up the Statue IMMEDIATELY and ram a bunch of Cataphracts turned Tanks down the AI's throat. Back this up with 6-12 Artillery and some units to whack the Anti-Tank infantry. General gets flagged by Terra Cotta and the Auto Plants/Factories at this point, and I send reinforcements as I'm able.

Now the AI is occupied, so I race to Modern, build a TON of bombers and start hammering cities and the oil supply. The AI's first city will fall late Industrial/early Modern, and with bombers added to the mix it gets ugly. I usually go for Info Age rather than nukes (5 full Universities will do the trick quickly), get that around the 35:00 mark and tidy up with MLRS, which is just SICK, if I'm not already in the capital.

Only major trick to note is this: research the next commerce tech before you advance ages...it's AMAZING what this does for your economy. I usually lag 1:00 to 1:30 behind comp in age advances until Industrial due to this. But I get Industrial first most of the time between 21:00 and 23:00.

[Grond]

I went back to toughest for a while and promptly lost 3 out of 5. Certain Civs are especially brutal on Toughest. Aztecs for their good early units and more importantly bonus resources for killing units and Inca for the refund for units killed, mass mortars and huge wealth once they start mining. Both can wear you down while advancing faster than you. The third was Chinese and a horde of Fire Lancers but I didn't make any Cav that game so they might not be that tough but I have a new respect for that unit.

[solo]

I liked playing with the Aztecs. In a 4 player survival game, they can usually rush a neighboring AI capital very early, using the free Atl unit followed by four hoplites. The Atl's patrol around the capital to make sure no barracks or towers are completed during the attack by the hoplites.

Plunder buys parity with the other AI in regards to advances and development and usually the captured AI capital and their second city come with many freebies such as farms, woodcutter camps, temples, markets, etc. The extra real estate supplies more special resources and provides long, lucrative trade routes, too.

However, this rush fails miserably against "aggressive" AI, such as the Romans, who start off building a barracks and hordes of hoplites themselves. The scout can usually find out in time whether or not the potential target is susceptible to a rush, before having to commit to this opening strategy.

If the target happens to be the Greeks, this is very good news, since their university can be filled quickly with scholars using plundered gold before having to research Classical. This provides a nice head start in acquiring knowledge.

After a few successful games as the Aztecs, I think I'm getting the hang of 4 player survival.

I'm trying the Bantus now. I think they or any other civ could accomplish a successful rush, too, in a 4 player survival game, so I've decided to try a boom with them instead, after putting down 4 cities very quickly. So far, I've been attacked three times, but had towers, temples, attrition, and a few archers established in the two outermost cities in time to weather the early onslaught coming from both AI neighbors, one of which is the Chinese.

I am finding that "crowding" AI opponents in 4 player games is not the best way to go. Better to lay low and not provoke. Then the AI are more likely to attack and weaken each other. This is the biggest benefit of playing against more than one AI in Toughest.

[solo]

I second Aginor's observations about fishing, and have noticed additional reasons for creating a large fleet of them early in the game.

Fishing boats are cheap and do not cost any food. Food must be spent on a citizen to tend a farm. Having extra food early is good, speeding up age advances. Each farmer counts as a unit of population, too. More citizens can be put to work on wood and metal sooner, when fewer are needed to tend farms. The early infusion of extra wealth from fishing allows a quicker pace researching scientific advances. So far I have not noticed much AI agression directed against fishermen, either, so they appear to be less vulnerable than farmers during AI attacks.

[solo]

I continued my game as the Bantus, who are good to boom with. After getting enough Civics for 4 quick cities, you can forget about researching it for a long time. The same goes for Military research once siege weapons are available, since unit upgrades do not require it and the pop cap never becomes a problem. This allows you to jump ahead in Economics and Science and win the tech race. I was first into the last two ages by a good margin.

AI opponents in this game were the Chinese, the Greeks and the Russians. I would have thought that the Chinese and Greeks could have pulled ahead in research and stayed well out front the whole game, given their research bonuses, but like all of other AI, they become distracted from accumulating knowledge somewhere in between Gunpowder and Industrial. A lot of their time and extra resources go into building and losing healthy amounts of every kind of new military unit introduced into the game. After a Gunpowder attack, the Chinese got into building as many wonders as possible. The Greeks kept up attacks into the Industrial Age, when they also started on some wonders. Who knows what the Russians were up to, since I never had any contact with them beyond the initial meeting when my scout circled the map.

Before I knew it the Chinese had an edge of 11 wonder points, and this started the wonder timer, of course. So by necessity, the rest of the game became a wonder race. I built the Supercollider in time to cut into this lead, but also had to rush two other wonders ahead of the the Chinese and Greeks, since the Chinese were about to regain their lead with the Space Program. I just finished the Taj Mahal and Versailles in time to keep the Chinese lead under 8 points. The Supercollider allowed an instant Missile Shield. After that 4 nukes were used to take out 3 Chinese wonders (the Space Program survives the first of two nukes) for a wonder victory.

I did not think much of my chances using a boom strategy when starting this game, because the 50% AI gathering bonus in Toughest gives them a good lead. It was tricky trying to determine how much miltary spending would be enough to ensure survival. Each unit built is a big investment in resources, so it was pretty obvious that Terra Cotta was the best early wonder to use. Having a surplus of infantry can really do a lot to make up for other military difficiencies such as hardly having any other units! I suspect things are as they were in CivII, where the AI can be tricked into being more passive by having quantity rather than quality.

Unfortunately, Terra Cotta would have been most useful before I was able to build it. Early in the game, I was attacked simultaneously by the Greeks on one side and by the Chinese on the other. This was handled, but just barely, by attrition and by archers built just in time to occupy the two outer cities and their towers. Two front wars can be a real headache and are not to be recommended, even when you are playing with the advantage of being the defender. If it were not for two fronts, people looking for a profitable career would be speaking German now throughout all of Europe and a good chunk of Russia.

The key to winning the game was finding a way to survive the next round of simultaneous attacks that were sure to be coming during Gunpowder. Forts are great defenders when you only have a limited army, but in RoN the range of siege weapons is enough to allow them to fire away at forts from a safe distance. This is also the way the AI like to attack, too, and at this point, they also have supply wagons so there’s no sense of urgency. I’d rather see banzai attacks into the withering counterfire of a fully charged fort, but the AI seem content camping and chipping away alarming amounts of hit points with every shot.

In previous games, I’ve tried several ways of dealing with these AI siege attacks.

I’ve tried building cavalry led by a general in a flank attack. This usually works well the first time, but mounted units are expensive and are too easily lost to opposing heavy infantry. Building and rebuilding expensive cavalry did not seem to be the way to go.

Another idea was to just build spies and to bribe the siege weapons. This is fine when it works and it’s great fun to point a freshly bribed cannon at its partner in time to blow it away, but if the AI has brought along a scout line unit and some spies of its own, bribery is not reliable. Since the AI usually do, spies will die and the cannons will keep firing.

I have had the best results so far by building a siege factory near each fort and targeting the AI siege weapons with some of my own. I also build spies to be used in emergencies when my siege weapons are outnumbered. Each cannon gets a heavy infantry partner to defend it and the whole group gets a general to run the “counter siege”. If the AI cavalry charge, they must make it through a barrage from the fort. They usually don’t make it. Most of the time, my own siege weapons have lasted long enough to take out the enemy’s before the fort is destroyed. After that, the AI attack loses steam, and my own siege weapons can be garrisoned, healing in time to fight the next battle.

In this game, I did lose one fort to the Greeks, but by that time, it contained a good supply of Terra Cotta infantry, which were immediately entrenched by the general. The entrenchment held off the AI charge that followed.

The remainder of the game was relatively easy to play. I was able to boom into a tech lead and never looked back.

[Nomad_oWn]

O4B...

Hope things are going well for ya.

I'm doing a SP Article on MFO. Do you mind if I reference this post and the game in the article? I'll give you full credit of course. If you want to do a small write up on the game that would be great to.. though I'm willing to use it as is.

Please let me know asap as I'll probably crank it out in the next day or two.

Thanks in advance.

[Aginor]

Originally posted by solo
I continued my game as the Bantus, who are good to boom with. After getting enough Civics for 4 quick cities, you can forget about researching it for a long time. The same goes for Military research once siege weapons are available, since unit upgrades do not require it and the pop cap never becomes a problem. This allows you to jump ahead in Economics and Science and win the tech race. I was first into the last two ages by a good margin.

Converted to the dark side of the Force, eh? I also never build more than 5-6 cities, and the last one or two are just to backfill...4 maxes out your resources for the duration if you place them well, and it reduces the number of spots you have to defend, which reduces the amount of resources spent on military early...you get the idea.

The Bantu are just amazingly good, and the real bonus of the dirt cheap cities is the ability to get a fast resource collection start and grab extra quality territory early, and is NOT the ability to sprawl over the map, which is usually a massive strategic mistake (too much space to defend, too few structures/armies on the frontier).

Overall strategy reminds me GREATLY of Risk...get as much land as you can take and *capably hold*. The complicating factor in this game is the tradeoff between choosing to use resources to build units to defend/take land or investing those resources in getting additional resources in the future. (Of course, in Risk units come at a fixed and predictable rate, which is easier to manage.)

Each unit built is a big investment in resources, so it was pretty obvious that Terra Cotta was the best early wonder to use.

Some math on the first four wonders:

Pyramids: Max +50 resources every 30 seconds, maximum achievement nearly assured
Colossus: Max +100 resources every 30 seconds and a BIG pop limit increase...but realistically you don't have Wealth maxed already...that said +50 Timber and +20 to 30 Wealth is quite nice...this Wonder fits Civs with pop limit issues like the Mongols better than the Bantu, though.
Colosseum: + to territory increases Taxation benefits minimally...not much resource gain
Terra Cotta: 100-300 resources (depending on army size) every 30-45 seconds or so...downside is that you are restricted to one use for the resources.

I think it's pretty clear which one gives the best return on investment. My basic strategy on the defensive is to build a few heavy infantry to hold off Cav charges and then pop mass Terra Cotta generated infantry out of forts behind that once the Cavalry charges in to spit itself on pikes...this rolls up invaders fast.

I suspect things are as they were in CivII, where the AI can be tricked into being more passive by having quantity rather than quality.

Clearly true in my experience. Brian goofed here by letting us use an old trick from Civ and SMAC.

Two front wars can be a real headache and are not to be recommended, even when you are playing with the advantage of being the defender.

You don't pick those, they pick you. Either you crack and get rolled, or you don't crack and you rebuild your army. Not much you can do except prepare for the possibility.

Forts are great defenders when you only have a limited army, but in RoN the range of siege weapons is enough to allow them to fire away at forts from a safe distance.

This is an RL strategy, and the ability to pound buildings from afar is the reason that cannon made castles a relic.

I’ve tried building cavalry led by a general in a flank attack. This usually works well the first time, but mounted units are expensive and are too easily lost to opposing heavy infantry. Building and rebuilding expensive cavalry did not seem to be the way to go.

This is fine if you stealth the other guy using a general in the butt rather than the side and get the artillery immediately, then pincer him with the infantry from the fort...but it's not the most efficient solution. A better use for the cavalry is actually to just lead the enemy army (especially the Cavalry) to the Fortress with a couple units in a Pied Piper sort of fashion, then flank the infantry with ranged units, THEN send out the light cav to whack the cannon once the infantry is occupied. The AI is dumb and will let you clear out its Cavalry line this way.

I have had the best results so far by building a siege factory near each fort and targeting the AI siege weapons with some of my own.

Seconded. I usually try to have at LEAST twice the number of siege units the AI might throw at my fort to defend it come Gunpowder. Costly, but effective, since you don't lose them if you care for them well, and already have them when it's time to hammer the AI.

Do build a supply wagon or two...you can REALLY clock an army fast with 7-8 Artillery pieces with enhanced rate of fire...it's like lambs to the slaughter as they approach...baaaaaaaaaaaaaa *BOOM* (infantry flies up into air)

A few more thoughts after some more games:

In a fast start research Commerce2 before going Classical. Research Science3 but not Commerce3 before going to Medieval so you can get the first University upgrade right away, then get Commerce3 immediately and max all resources again with buildings & building research. Next priority is Commerce4 - you should be overmaxed after putting up two Granaries and Lumber Mills, as well as Smelters where needed and doing level 1 building research, so this will REALLY get you to take off. Then Gunpowder...you'll burn your Food and Wealth supplies on Terra Cotta, so you'll need a while to build Food back up to go Gunpowder, and won't be able to afford Science4, which necessitated Commerce4 in the research order. Then go Science4 and get Printing Press...by now you've got 3 full Universities and if your economy is humming like it should you're working on filling #4, and you should just kick tail in Enlightenment.

Metal sucks early if you're not a warmonger...that said you can sell it for Wealth to fill Universities earlier, which gets you a nice tech lead, so build those Mines fast kids! Costs about 200 resources to build and fill your first mine, which is NOT bad at all for the returns you get!

I've started building the forts in closer to my border cities recently...I can garrison both the city and fort early for a much larger hidden army (which I don't upgrade until the enemy shows up), and I just find that making the fort an outpost wreaks havoc with my supply lines. It also permits the enemy to pound the fort from inside his territory, which can be a problem when trying to clean up the siege engines after the rest of the army dies as well. Usually I'll use a Spy or two as scouts to see if the enemy tries to build a City/Fort near the border to move it closer in, and if he does I sally forth in numbers and whack some Citizens...comp is NOT good about giving those guys the appropriate cover, which is unwise given the resource investment in, say, a fortress...

Has anyone else noticed that the really amazing thing about the Statue (other than no more stinking attrition) is the ability to stockpile enough Oil to go to Modern FAST without having to spend a fortune at the Market or build mad Refineries to do it? However, the one BIG negative with a fast Statue is the inability to pull a fast Science6 research and slam up refineries, especially since it takes about 1100 Wealth to get the Statue when you figure for having to research the third construction tech at the Lumber Mill right then...

Another thought - the REAL point of a light infantry rush early is not actually to take cities, burn farms, or any of that, but just to force the other guy to:
1) recall Citizens and not get resources (duh)
2) force the other guy to spend Wealth on one of the counters (archers/heavy cav) thus stunting Knowledge development

A corollary to this is that it for most civs it only makes sense to rush in a game with ONE other player. The reason is that in rushing you cripple your own infrastructure unless you get free units. The guy you don't rush will bury you in resource production, and that will come home to roost around Gunpowder.



Hit Info Age on the comp in 31:00 last night...and I was ALREADY in his capital lol...built some nukes for fun and had him down to 2 Cities by the end at 35:30. Basically I built a few early units and those + Terra Cotta scared him off after I FLATTENED invasion force #1 with a nasty 4 Heavy Knight charge in early Gunpowder...lost one Knight to get 8 Arquebustiers, 2 Bombards, a General and a Wagon...ouch :-) Comp paid for failing to harass me with an earlier-than-usual Statue-fueled steamroll from 23:00 to 30:00.

I'll be working on 4-player over the weekend...should be interesting (and fun)...think I'll turn Wonder victories off and see if I can't get enough of a tech lead to get it done with a massive assault on one player, followed up with nukes. Not sure that I see extra AI players as an advantage, as the variables are a lot less manageable...I already know where the AI will come from in 2-player, and I can guess when fairly well.

[solo]

Aginor,

Looks like we are pretty much on the same wavelength. All you say makes perfect sense. I have a few more comments:

For one who being pestered by the AARP to become a member and with my preference for TBS and taking my time when I play, you can be sure that I will flub up even the simplest cavalry maneuvers in an RTS battle. Even with liberal use of the pause feature, I’ll mess it up somehow, so for now I’ll stick with the big guns and blast away. Early on, all I could manage was parity in the number of cannon, since I was up against two attackers. Supply wagons were added later, but I should try to build two earlier in my next game.

My thought is that while the AI can afford to build lots of every kind of weapon, the human player should be selective, but do a good job in the areas of specialization. Terra Cotta helps the most, because infantry are the backbone of any army, and quantity is good there, especially when you don’t have to pay ramping costs. That’s one of the best hidden benefits of this wonder, no ramping costs. Then I specialize with siege and forget about horses altogether, waiting until Industrial to build Auto plants and tanks. Tanks are a key ingredient later, and by that time I have enough resources to queue them up and pump them out.

As for other early wonders, with some civs, I would really want to try and build Colossus early.

My early research path is quite a bit different than yours, although I also put the emphasis on science and a good economy. What I have had success in doing is to delay going to Classical for as long as it is practical in order to conduct research using food instead of knowledge. Food is much easier to come by early in the game, and if you lead research with science the ruins found by your scout help replenish the supply of it, fueling more early research. In my last game I trailed the AI into Classical by about 5 minutes, but jumped on to Medieval quickly after that. Then it was a rush to research attrition, update key units, etc. in order to be ready for that first attack.

I’ve have experimented quite a bit with different openings and have discovered that the AI usually attack earlier if I go to Classical earlier. The same seems to hold true for Gunpowder later, which I also defer until the last minute, too. Delaying these two age advances provides more time for research before Classical and for booming before Gunpowder. Over several games, this correlation has proven to be true. The AI have such a big edge in gathering rates, that it helps to buy time using every efficiency and delaying tactic available in order to catch up. Another thing I’ve noticed is that they key on economy and research early, but slack off on both later in their keeness to build a lot of units and fight wars. If they kept booming the human player would never have a chance to catch up. So what we want is as much peace and quiet as possible early, and I’ve found that delaying Classical and Gunpowder delays AI aggression as long as you do nothing to tick them off like conducting pre-emptive raids or border pushing their merchants using forts, etc. There is plenty of time to become more provocative, later on.

Thus, I very much agree with your point about turtling in with the earliest forts. For outlaying cities, my first two towers overlap my cities, and later my first two forts are just a little further out, overlapping these towers. This provides a more secure base to build upon later on. I’ve found that pushing a little too far earlier, like in attempts to snag a special closer to an AI border will backfire later on when playing Toughest.

(Now all this applies when using a boom. Against 4 AI I believe your best bet is to rush the capital of an AI neighbor immediately, as I did with the Aztecs in my previous game. I always try to hold on to it after reducing it, to gain two cities and the terrain, specials and city improvements built with the victim’s time and resources. However, the plunder alone (500 of each resource) is enough to attain research parity, as long as Classical has been delayed. At that point a quick conversion to a boom strategy would work out just as well, if not better, than opening boom to begin with. In addition, one nearby opponent has been severely crippled, lessening the chances of a two front war.)

Another thing I have noticed while playing is that there is a temptation to take shortcuts you really shouldn’t, such as building just a few more wood choppers to stretch up to that next timber cap. I’ve found it’s better to wait a bit and research the improvement that boosts output. This limits the number of camps you need to construct and limits the number of sawmills needed, too. In my Bantu game, I started with 3 sets of small woods near my captial, one holding 5 choppers and the other two with a capacity of four. With timely production improvements, I never needed more than that. Same goes for farms. I only had 5 and used fishing boats and specials for the rest of my food. Any time you can save wood by not having to build another granary, sawmill, etc., is wood saved to help build an army and to secure those scientific techs that boost scholar output. In the long run, quick fixes to cap resource production cost lost production later.

Another good economy is not to overbuild. For example, temples do the most good in the outlying cities which are prone to attack. Only one or two markets are needed, too. There is a temptation to build things where they really are not useful just because the opportunity exists. In Toughest you must be brutally efficient in deciding how to spend your resources.

Well, that’s enough ranting for now! Have fun in your own 4-player game! In one of my first ones playing as the Greeks, I used the “very slow and expensive” option, which I think is better than turning off wonder victories if you want a game with more opportunities for conquest, and games in which you get to really have some fun playing with the possibilities available in each age. Things zip too quickly at the “normal” rate in Toughest to build up adequate armies for earlier age attacks. In my Greek game, I took out one AI during Medieval and then went after the other one during Industrial. Wonder races never figured into things at all. For sure, winning by conquest is more fun.

[Grond]

I'm beginning to think Colossus is the most important Wonder vs the AI. Its the gift that keeps on giving. The extra timber and gold early is great but the pop limit is a huge advantage later. Not only does it allow you to research other techs first like research and commerce before military but it lets you field bigger armies. It seems like I'm always at pop limit in the games when I don't get it.

[Aginor]

Originally posted by solo
Aginor,

For one who being pestered by the AARP to become a member and with my preference for TBS and taking my time when I play...Even with liberal use of the pause feature, I’ll mess it up somehow, so for now I’ll stick with the big guns and blast away.

Sounds like we have more in common than you thought. Of course, only chance against the AI is 'P' since it can do a million things at the same time...

OK kids, 4-player is REALLY hard...got just obliterated in Classical/Gunpowder the first three times (underbuilt military) before I figured out how to get it done with Towers in attempt #4...basically one AI will ALWAYS rush me with 4 Slingers & two Hoplites (possibly 2 Archers as well) every game at around the 4 minute mark...another comes calling a minute later, and if I delay Military 1 past 4th minute I get wrecked because I have no Barracks.

So I get to fight with one hand tied behind my back the whole game because I lag BIGTIME due to having to crank out an early military, which I do not have to do during Ancient in 2-player (and if I do get rushed I just slaughter the AI's troops from behind and then the AI lags behind me due to failure to build up economy early and gets ROLLED).

Basically for me the trick to Toughest with the Bantu is getting all resources maxed at 200 ASAP, and at that point the rest of the game kind of plays itself - research building upgrades, build Terra Cotta, build Statue, CHARGE!

Unfortunately this is NOT easy on Toughest with the 3rd and 4th variables in the game.

As for other early wonders, with some civs, I would really want to try and build Colossus early.

Everyone except Bantu, pretty much. Bantu have a built in Colossus for the pop limit...the extra Wealth IS nice tho even with them.

In my last game I trailed the AI into Classical by about 5 minutes, but jumped on to Medieval quickly after that. Then it was a rush to research attrition, update key units, etc. in order to be ready for that first attack.

What game are YOU playing? In 4 player I usually have 2 visitors in my territory by about the 4th minute...delaying Classical past researching Commerce2 is NOT an option (and sometimes I can't wait that long)...without quick Towers and Archers I get SMOKED by Slinger beatdown. 3 Archers + Tower = dead Slingers though

I’ve have experimented quite a bit with different openings and have discovered that the AI usually attack earlier if I go to Classical earlier. The same seems to hold true for Gunpowder later, which I also defer until the last minute, too.

I have NOT experienced this...if I delay either of these advances overlong the AI inevitably comes calling immediately to take advantage of my weakness and flatten me.

(Now all this applies when using a boom. Against 4 AI I believe your best bet is to rush the capital of an AI neighbor immediately, as I did with the Aztecs in my previous game. I always try to hold on to it after reducing it, to gain two cities and the terrain, specials and city improvements built with the victim’s time and resources. However, the plunder alone (500 of each resource) is enough to attain research parity, as long as Classical has been delayed. At that point a quick conversion to a boom strategy would work out just as well, if not better, than opening boom to begin with. In addition, one nearby opponent has been severely crippled, lessening the chances of a two front war.)

Rushing is an interesting thought, but I think the only way you can capably rush like that on Toughest is with a rush civ (Aztec/Mongol especially), and playing with Bantu I just don't think that's where my long term advantages lie.

In the long run, quick fixes to cap resource production cost lost production later.

I have a tendency to be bad about that and overbuild Woodcutters...usually pretty efficient with Farms, never more than 10/2 Granaries. I also tend to slam up Mines like MAD in Classical, which slows me down in tech a bit but lets me finance 3 full Universities very quickly, which I feel pays off by letting me catch up to the AI in Knowledge by Industrial (which is the one time I cannot afford to lag, since the Statue is my baby).

Anyway, how I won an UGLY victory at 45 mins in Info Age:

Got the 3 Cities fast, no mountain at #1 so #2 and #3 in straight line next to mountains. Got the Dock, Market and Temple up so I could snag Science2, then threw up Military1 and built what I could with the available resources. Lost half of that defending against the inevitable rush (which fortunately my Scout saw coming). Got Commerce2 and was at about 140/130 on main resources, all good, got Classical. At this point one of the civs (dunno who, turns out to be Germans) is already researching Medieval (6:30 mark) and I'm NOT pleased.

Get Civics2 next and build city #4 next to a big Forest and yet ANOTHER mountain, and now the Egyptians show with a BIG army. Now as it turns out their capital is ALL THE WAY ACROSS THE MAP and they have marched right past the Germans to get here...not cool. I've just got nothing in that city, but I do have the first Attrition...problem is he upgrades to Medieval units RIGHT in the middle of the fight after I send the kitchen sink and I start getting wrecked (still Classical kids...this is NOT cool) so I start garrisoning the troops and waiting.

Eventually the darned troops die and I've got my fourth city back...fortunately I had JUST made it and lost nothing to the rush. Crank out Medieval and wait until around 12:00 to build Terra Cotta (too many things to do to get production to 260), don't get Gunpowder until 16:00, last one there. Never see another army attempting an incursion until Modern...odd.

Get Enlightenment around 19:00, last one in again, get Industrial around 22:30 (second one), with 5th city online production finally maxed out and looking good at 320. Start cranking out Cataphracts late Enlightenment, sell off timber so I can afford Statue...Egyptians are not in Modern but start making Statue - uh oh.

Get Industrial, clear out my farms at capital to build Statue, sell OIL! to get $ to research last construction tech (HAVE to get Statue, can't afford not to at this point). VQ capital rally on Statue. Build extra citizens to man those farms as I'm able. About halfway through build I catch up to Egyptians and life is now good again as I KNOW I've got her now.

More Cataphracts. Supply Wagon. About 8 Artillery. Fusileers. Mass on General at southern fort. Preparing to roll game leader (Germans)...he is now researching Modern? What did I do to deserve this?

Statue goes up, pending about 6 additional Tanks bought for cheap. Need Science6 for Refineries so I can build MORE tanks. Crank out some Anti-Aircraft guns just in case. Hit southern border...Versailles is about to go up down there, and I'm going to steal it .

Roll 2 German cities (HA...now I know how you've been cranking out the research...no military eh?) Ugly firefight for Berlin, but I take it. New Factories and Auto Plants, now Terra Cotta is getting bombed so I throw up Anti-Aircraft and an Airbase there. Put up forward Airbases for Bombers. Egyptians get to Modern (been there a while now)...start on Supercollider and Space Program. Net wonder situation is me +3 after they get Taj and Eiffel. Not good.

OK time to go get the guaranteed win by jacking the Egyptian wonders right after they get built. Got nukes, don't use (conventional will do the trick as I'm on verge of Info Age, no sense irritating comp into nuking me) but WILL ICBM mercilessly if nuked.

Slam out Tanks and Howitzers, rush. Wonder Timer starts...got plenty of time. Supercollider goes down, next is Space Program. World Government...thanks for coming out.

Not a pretty way of doing it...probably could have nuked my way to a territory victory at that point, but it would NOT have been fun as I was at the pop cap and the Colossus was gone (had captured it, but it got blown away in the fight).