I was lied to; this game isn't unique at all!

[Rolfski]

Originally posted by Solver
Download the demo which is supposed to be public today .

Where did you get that info? I thought Fileplanet had it exclusively for a week?

[yin26]

Download the demo which is supposed to be public today .

Really, Yin, I believe that your taste should be enough to persuade many Apolytoners

LOL! God help Poly... Seems like you've already done an outstanding job on that front anyway. Besides, I don't think I'll feel comfortable 'reviewing' a demo. This is why it only makes sense that somebody (Brian Reynolds?) send me the complete game...right?

I mean ... right?

[Solver]

Yes, right .

But you will review the full game, no doubt. I'll also take this chance to say that I found your GalCiv review to be most interesting and well-written.

[GoblinToe]

I would also like to agree with the original poster. I've played about 3 Conquer the World campaigns, so I think I have definitely experienced all the game has to offer, and I can definitely tell you that there is nothing new here in Rise of Nations.

As mentioned in this thread already, Total Annihilation is probably the king of RTS games. The sheer amount of units you could have on the screen, the absolutely amazing waypoint and queuing system, the unit AI (construction bots automatically repairing things along their routes, or even helping build at factories), units leaving scrap metal behind after being destroyed (which sometimes changed the frontlines after a huge, epic battle...because you needed the resources), etc. All that 6 years ago, too, and not one single RTS game has improved on, or, hell, even come close the same level of functionalty that TA had in all that time!

Sad to say, but neither does Rise of Nations.

First of all, in Rise of Nations the waypoint system barely exists. For instance, you cannot queue up a Move, and then an Attack Move as the second waypoint! Helllllooo! TA did this 6 years ago!

There are no healing units whatsoever. In order to heal your people you need to garrison them in buildings, but this is a complete an absolutely nightmare of micromanagement to do with a large army. To the point of healing being utterly useless because it's just quicker to build more units than it is to heal them. Gah. So, RON ends of being a gigantic rush of units. Also, there is no experience system at all, no heroes, nothing. There is a general unit, but they are virtually useless and require way too much management. Even generals don't level up.

The air unit AI is ridiculous. Empire Earth had some decent unit AI, and TA's air unit AI is still king, of course. In Rise of Nations, when you set an air mission order, your plane will loiter around that spot even after it's dropped it's bombs. It'll just stay there forever, dropping bombs, and taking fire until it is dead. It will only return home when it sees no more enemy units. Stupid! At least in EE the plane would return to base after it dropped its payload, so it could also heal as well as rearm.

Hell, in TA you could tell your air units to reuturn to base after taking a selectable amount of damage! That was awesome. I don't think any RTS game since then has matched that. Why? WHO KNOWS!

The interface in RON needs a ton of work. For one thing, there is no way to change key commands. So, if you can't remember that Ctrl-Alt-Rshift-E means "change unit aggressiveness" then tough luck.

Also, there is no queuing at unit factories!!! WHAT THE HELL?! You have to constantly hammer on the build queues. In fact, that's what you spend most of your game doing! Units die fast in RON, and you are constantly building more, so you spend all your time hammering on the build buttons, only to hear that annoying gong that means you don't have the resources. Why can't you queue build orders? WHO KNOWS!

I could go on, but why bother. I'll let someone else continue the complaint list.

Rise of Nations is mediocre at the very best, and barely that.

Brian Reynolds, I am very disappointed in RON. I expected much more from you after your work in Civ2.

[Solver]

As much as I understand that everyone has got a right for his opinion, I still see this as ridicilous. Failure to see how this game plays way more strategically from any other is... hmm, odd.

One little correction about EE Air Unit AI. They went home after dropping bombs because the game was designed so that a bomber HAD to refuel immediately after dropping bombs. Fighter-bomber craft that needed no such refueling till flight time ran out, would also stay in enemy area forever.

[yin26]

Solver: Hey, thanks for the nice words. I'll return the favor by leaving you to fight this battle alone! (...though as soon as Brian sends me a copy, I'll come to your defense...)

[Solver]

Oh, Yin, you're a classic. Gotta agree with what FrantzX said in your sig phrase.

You're the nicest of all 26 yins out there .

[TheMaestro]

This game will be great mainly cause there has been somewhat of a gap for good RTS recently. Generals was good, but nowhere near on par with Red Alert series, just cause Red Alert was so amazing.

But RoN looks great, and if they release a public demo soon it will help sway most of the people on the "edge" so to speak. But it looks like a good game.

[Graham@BHG]

First off, anyone who wishes to is free to dislike the game. We know we aren't going to be able to please everybody!

I just wanted to pop in and clear up a few incorrect pieces of information that have been posted so that nobody gets the wrong idea.

1 - Supply wagons have the ability to heal if you are playing as the French, or if you construct the Versailles wonder of the world. There are also several upgrades which speed up the healing rate of units that are inside buildings. Rarely is it more feasible to invest in a new army then heal existing units.

2 – Fighters and bombers have a fuel gauge. You can order them to attack a specific area, or move to a location, or attack a specific target. They will attack, or circle a specific area if there are no enemies, until their fuel runs low and they return to their airbase. You can also recall them at any time via a button at the air base, have them repeat your previous order or not, and even select them in-flight and issue new orders.

3 - There are hotkeys and hotkey combinations for a wide variety of useful functions and you can customize them to your heart's delight.

4 - There are unit queues in all buildings that train units. You can select multiple buildings of the same type and queue units in them all simultaneously. You can set attack stances for units created at these buildings as well, so that they will exit the facility with the stance you prefer.

Like I said in a recent post at RONH, try the demo and see for yourself. It's far more exciting than reading previews or posts about building queues!

[Rohag]

Disappointment is a fundamental human right, and I reserve the right to indulge myself in it as much as any other. Regarding RoN I feel no need to invoke that right.

Total Annihilation is a super RTS game! I can’t begin to number the hours of enjoyment I’ve derived from the Cavedog classic. I could say the same about Civ2 as TBS. Were I seeking RoN to be an RTS like TA or a Civ2 RTS port, I would be disappointed.

Maybe it’s because I purchase so few games, but each seems to provide a distinct gaming experience.

RoN originally caught my attention because it seemed an elegant combination of design elements that would allow immersion in a continous-time version of history and not just an RTS bloodbath. Judged against that standard, I am not disappointed.

BHG has achieved what it has through careful balancing. Tacking a deep SMAC-style diplomatic system (a Good Thing) onto the tactical magnificence of TA (another Good Thing) would do damage to both (a Bad Thing).

Go get ‘em, Solver!

[One_Dead_Villy]

It doesnt even sound like you're playing the same game. and other parts simply dont know how to play it.

Originally posted by GoblinToe
There are no healing units whatsoever.

wrong...as BR said the French has wagons that heal, and other can gain that ability with Wonders.

The air unit AI is ridiculous. Empire Earth had some decent unit AI, and TA's air unit AI is still king, of course. In Rise of Nations, when you set an air mission order, your plane will loiter around that spot even after it's dropped it's bombs. It'll just stay there forever, dropping bombs, and taking fire until it is dead. It will only return home when it sees no more enemy units. Stupid! At least in EE the plane would return to base after it dropped its payload, so it could also heal as well as rearm.

That was the complain EE people had with their bombers
that it only could drop ONE lousy bomb, and even if it had more gas it had to return home. If I sent a bomb a short distance I expect it to hang around and help the attack and not just go home even though it hardly used up its gas and bombs.

The interface in RON needs a ton of work. For one thing, there is no way to change key commands. So, if you can't remember that Ctrl-Alt-Rshift-E means "change unit aggressiveness" then tough luck.

the hot kets are competely configurable...learn to play the game properly

Also, there is no queuing at unit factories!!! WHAT THE HELL?!

This comment is really baffling, and completely ridiculous. and shows this person hasnt even played teh game. NOT only does it have queuing, but RoN also has infinite and patterned queuing. (which means u can set a building to produce units in certain order and ratios) indefinitely, as long as u have resource. It also lets you assign them to pre-set army groups right from the factory.

Brian Reynolds, I am very disappointed in RON. I expected much more from you after your work in Civ2.

maybe you aught to be dissapointed in your ability to read the instructions in the game, cause its obvious that either you dont know how to play, or you're not even playing the same game.


Does RoN have room for improvement? Yes of course, I can think of a bunch. But those points you make are either debatable, or completely wrong as in it doesnt even jive with reality and the way the game plays, its like two different games u're talking about.

[Solver]

Yes, it does indeed make the impression that people are playing different games here, I wonder...

Nice to see someone from BHG post, too .

[Triphosphatase]

Glad to see so many TAers around!

The situation where a collection of imbalances, coincidences, and straight-out bugs in TA was responsible for making TA into the most unique RTS there existed. All RTS that followed forced strategy into the game, most notably the Rock-Paper-Scissors dilemma that exists in practically 90% of the the new RTS games. (including RoN)

Let us see what made TA so unique:

The developers: Let there be two sides, Arm and Core.
Well... Arm turned out to be the more powerful side in TA and is played on the majority of land and sea maps. (Exceptions for some sea maps or large maps where Core is preferred)

The developers: Let there be hundreds of unique mobile units and stationary units!
Well... The only useful unit on flat land maps turned out to be missile towers and missile trucks. Nothing else was worth building. (except for a unit which was notorious for causing lag and was used exclusively for that reason alone)
On small sea maps, there turned out to be an oddball unit called the Pelican. On land the Pelican was useless. It was butchered by missiles from trucks and towers. On sea however, there existed a bug where the missile will not damage the Pelican. This little 'bug' coupled with a simple small sea map called the "Gods of War" created perhaps the most interesting strategical stage every witnessed on a RTS. If a game with only missile trucks and missile towers shooting missiles at each other was exciting and very tactical, imagine what happened when a whole plethora of units were unleashed in this small water map. There were no "special" damages. A weapon subtracted X amount of damage from all units. There was no rock-paper-scissors, yet there was harmony among units.

One of the "game enders" in TA was a Big Bertha. The cannon can shoot shells across medium sized maps from one edge to the other and was able to destroy most buildings with one shot. To combat this weapon, players built bombers. Many bombers. Only playing TA for yourself can you experience the orgasm of having thirty bombers carpet bomb a Big Bertha gaurded by dozens of healing units, including the Commander. The screen freezes for half a second, then all of the opponent's units spontaneously explode. The death explosion from the Big Birtha killed the enemy Commander, ending the game.

There were other fine points in TA which aren't being mimicked by modern RTS games.
-The TA waypointing and queuing systems are still unmatched. Why!?
-Units can shoot while moving! This was also the main factor in making TA a classic. RoN does have this feature, but the implementation just doesn't work as in TA.
-The most beautifully animated and modelled aircraft in a RTS that aren't frustrating to command.
-Most weapons aren't "instant hit" weapons. The cannons acutally fire orange blobs and most explosion can be traced to which direction it was fired from and what unit was responsible for it.
-No "special attacks." The units in TA simply fire their weapons automatically, moving or not, when the units sees an enemy unit. The extent in which they were implemented in Warcraft/Starcraft just made the game into a micromanagement hell. (the true click-fest)
-The super-powerful starting unit completely stopped "Starcraft rushes." A player can hinder the expansion of their opponents, but will not win with a 5 minute rush.

Anyways...

I am finished with RoN. Played through some CTW campaigns (which are redundant battles against the incompetent AI played on the same setting over and over again) and also played some skirmishes against human players. After a few multiplayer games, I saw that the games played very much like AOE/AOK/AOM/EE with very subtle improvements. These small improvements and gimmicks will not revive this beaten to death formula for RTS games. I uninstalled RoN and added it to my list of dissapointing RTS games.

[One_Dead_Villy]

well its truely astounding that you're basically enamoured with the bugs in the program. and creating lag in the game as strategy? give me a break. u want the game to freeze, and lag? just get a crappy graphics card and computer, i'm sure it will choke the machine when playing RoN, if u want to get that effect. Your arguments are just plain silly.


I guess now we understand why some people like campy scifi flicks with bad special effects, and u can see the strings holding up the spaceships.


and i certainly hope u are done with RoN...at least we wont have to see any more silly posts about how poorly designed TA is. ure giving it a bad name..and it doesnt deserve it

[vee4473]

Originally posted by ACEofHeart
well, I was intially scratching my head why a RTS game was on Apolyton.
Because virtually every RTS game I have ever played the "S" in RTS did not stand for strategy", it stood for "speed". It always came down to how "fast" you gather resourses, how "fast" you went to the next age..how fast you cranked out units,, how "fast" you can scroll the map in battle, how fast .. well....blah,, blah,, blah... you get the idea.
hmmm,,,was it put on Apolyton just because of Mr Reynolds ?

TBS games are all about speed too, just in a turn based more leisurely way.

In civ etc..., if you don't advance in tech to get better units, then the guy who does can potentially crush you with his more powerful units.

RTS games just "seem" to have speedy clickfesting at their core because of the "real time, everything is always moving" nature.

Many say RTS is all about how fast you can upgrade this unit or get to that age, but isn't TBS the same?

How many people have "research beelines" in civ type games in order to get a tech that falls in line with their strategy? What's the differnce between beelining to advanced flight in civ and beelining to siege tank technology in starcraft? Besides time.

It's the same thing to me, it just "seems" more strategic in a TBS title because the longer time needed to get there and the leisurely turn-by-turn nature combine to form some sort of illusion of depth of game.

ehh