Custom Race- Best Stats?

[originalbork]

There are quite a few musts to playing MP well. There are even more minor if's which determine far more games than starting position. Even equal players may go through a series of move, counter move which outweigh starting position many times. The tech choices become crucial and the point that you choose to push your advantage is crucial.

That being said a lop-sided start is too much to overcome which probably explains why Kali played primarily ave tech. Advanced was a totally different beast and pre warp would limit the real challengers by your start.

[bakalov]

ok, I agree but that was because less or more the players used start-point dependent races ...

In some of your posts you mentioned that you use a kind of strategy for filling up the other systems (and you mentioned that it is a long story) but if you don't mind can you post the main ideas about it?

And another question - do u get tachion communications for more command points (+1 per starbase) - and how big your fleet usually is along the time scale?

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by originalbork
Last try at logical thinking, then I give up on helping you.

I am not sure what the tyraid is about, but in any event, I did not need any help and so far you have not said anything I did not know. You did make three statements, two of which you failed to prove. The other I have no way I knowing about and it is not relevant anyway. Those two statement were 1- I will have 3 colony ships out by turn 45-50. 2- I will win by t110-150.
everything else you said was nothing different than I have posted on the board in the past and have agreed with by and large. That is what is so strange to me, you keep coming back to harp on something, when the only things I have disagreed with are those two points and your percpetion that no one could figure out how to play MP. That last can't be true as every great MP player that ever played, once was a non MP player. That means it can be figured out. That was my only point about MP, it is not better only different. I seriously doubt it takes anyone special to do it. So anyway I am sorry if I was to dull witted to get it, after all I only have an IQ of 142, and can not be expected to comprehend everything.

[piratebrun]

I tried Bork's race

Imp, Prewarp
Uni, Aqua, +2 prod, etc...

And had 2 colonies by t48, by 100 had 1/4 the galaxy (was building more than conquering) but I see how this race can outstrip all the others. I even had a higher tech rating than the psilons (who I was stealing tech from right and left.)

This is a great race!

[vmxa1]

Yes that was never in doubt. You can get a second colony by around turn 50 even with 4 planets to colonize in your system. Well assuming that you have a planet in range and not protected at that time. At least you could get the CS out by then.

[piratebrun]

Actually, 2 MORE colonies, besides my home system, and my home system was filled with colony bases as well, so I actually had 5 total colonies, 3 systems.

[originalbork]

Originally posted by vmxa1

That is what is so strange to me, you keep coming back to harp on something, when the only things I have disagreed with are those two points and your percpetion that no one could figure out how to play MP. That last can't be true as every great MP player that ever played, once was a non MP player. That means it can be figured out. That was my only point about MP, it is not better only different. I seriously doubt it takes anyone special to do it. So anyway I am sorry if I was to dull witted to get it, after all I only have an IQ of 142, and can not be expected to comprehend everything.

You missed the point a good SP won't be a good MP until they have significant experience playing multi and may not even then. On the other hand someone who plays multi only can switch back to SP and beat the computer at breakneck speed without changing ship design or basic strategy.

I think my point of build speed is being backed up by piratebrun and I have no idea of his skill level.

[vmxa1]

I do not understand why you say I missed your point. I have repeated it essentially. The point of contention as I see it is your insitance that all SP players are some how going to have a lengthy adjustment period. I have shown you that all the stuff you point out about MP games is well known. Selling star bases for tele and marine barracks for uni and on down the line are not unheard of concepts. Just because one does not play MP style for entertainment, does not mean they are not familar with those strategies. Just because I drove 70 in my mustang convertable does not meant it will not go faster. MP player do not have a monopoly on logic.
Pirateburn matched what I had posted, 5 planets around turn 50 and I concurred with it. Like I said it is not a big secret and was well documented many years ago. Frankly I do not know what we are quibbling about. No matter how many times I compliment you, you insist upon under estimating others. That does not seem like a trait that would bode well at most endevers.

[originalbork]

You missed it again. Here it is again

Competition is better, more flexible and more adabtable therefore the players involved are forced to learn more about the game and manage their empires with near perfect precision if they want to win. Therefore they become better. Not that they are inherantly (sp) better. Just they are forced to become that way.

I never mentioned entertainment. I said skill.

[gramians]

My race stats for Moo2 are almost always:

Bad:
-5 Low G
-2 Ground Combat -10%
-3 Spying -10%

Good:
+6 Subterranean
+6 Telepathic
+6 Unification

Being telepathic means you can be absolute crap as foot soldiers, so the low g and poor ground combat faults are almost negligible.
Furthermore, the 20 turns to assimilate populations (by being unified) and poor spying ability are also countered by being telepathic.
That way, you get the production and food bonuses of being unified (which apply to assimilated races on top of their natural abilities!) for free.

Go forth and conquer!

[originalbork]

Originally posted by gramians
My race stats for Moo2 are almost always:

Bad:
-5 Low G
-2 Ground Combat -10%
-3 Spying -10%

Good:
+6 Subterranean
+6 Telepathic
+6 Unification

Being telepathic means you can be absolute crap as foot soldiers, so the low g and poor ground combat faults are almost negligible.
Furthermore, the 20 turns to assimilate populations (by being unified) and poor spying ability are also countered by being telepathic.
That way, you get the production and food bonuses of being unified (which apply to assimilated races on top of their natural abilities!) for free.

Go forth and conquer!

Actully the low-g hurts bad on production on High-G and Normal G planets. You are very correct about ground combat.

Once you start assimilating pop the game is basically over in SP. Throw the Alien Rehab Center and it is not so bad.

The key to the Uni-Aqua production race is that the +2 prod and rich hw are multiplied by the uni pick so that. +2 prod is actually +3. And the rich 5 prod hw is now 7.5. By combining aqua with uni my food production (4.5 at home) and some planet sizes go up. The key to race selection is multipliers. DEMO with Research or Money. UNI with food or production.

By having ungodly production you build faster, make pop faster, and once you have more buildings and pop you have more ships and research.

Just consider how slow uni-sub starts compared to the uni aqua.

UNI-SUB-TELE
Turn 1 needs 3 farmers and 5 workers produce 22.5 production - polution (excuse me I don't have my disk anymore so I don't know this answer) ( or 15 research).

UNI-AQUA-+2 pro- large rich hw
Turn 1 needs 2 farmers and 6 workers produce 63 production - polluction (or 18 research). So the first colony base will go down in 1/2 - 1/3 the time (I think 5 turns on the first 4 on the second). That colony base immediately starts pop farming thus filling the HW sooner.

By the time these 2 meet the aqua will have more colonies, tech and ships and a minimum of a +15 def spy bonus. What happens after I take population is a minor concern? The issue is taking population.

The one change for Prewarp that can help the production race is to drop 1 prod and go ARTI home to break out a bit sooner.

[gramians]

Originally posted by originalbork


Actully the low-g hurts bad on production on High-G and Normal G planets... (--1--)

Once you start assimilating pop the game is basically over in SP. Throw the Alien Rehab Center and it is not so bad. (--2--)

The key to the Uni-Aqua production race is that the +2 prod and rich hw are multiplied by the uni pick so that. +2 prod is actually +3. And the rich 5 prod hw is now 7.5. ... By having ungodly production you build faster, make pop faster, and once you have more buildings and pop you have more ships and research...Just consider how slow uni-sub starts compared to the uni aqua. (--3--)

The one change for Prewarp that can help the production race is to drop 1 prod and go ARTI home to break out a bit sooner. (--4--)

1) Yes, Low-G hurts. But you start on a low g planet, so there is no INITIAL drawback, and then you can get a Planetary Gravity generator, which takes care of the rest.
2) and 3) - All I need is one cruiser and I can instantly assimilate populations. no need to buy troop transports. no initial "we're unhappy and thus it takes 3 of us to make one food unit" phase. no revolutions.

This leads to a population boom (and thus production) far greater than what you could do with fishes. Furthermore your fish guys are unified, it takes 20 turns to assimilate just one alien. Sure, the ACR makes it faster, but that will take you forever. I just mind control them, and all the production bonuses the PC or Hume has spent on their race become mine.

As far as fishes go - yes, your plan does make production faster. But as I am trying to say, that is only relevant until the first telepathic cruiser is made. You need to invest a lot more - for troops, for food (since conquered races arent happy enough to feed themselves) etc. to capture and hold a planet.

4) Also, since waterworlds are so rare it is generally a bad idea to be a fish since their benefits are almost nil off of their homeworld. not really worth 5 pts to me. They would kick serious in pre-warp, where my telepaths sit on their duff with no one around to mind control - but then again, if you start as advanced, you had better defend your perimeter. I'm coming. And I'm ca-ray-zee.

[kalbear]

The benefits of an aquatic race are almost nil outside of their home? Have you READ aquatic?

You treat all oceans and terrans as Gaia - high pop gain, high food - meaning that you need less workers on food, meaning more production. Aqua + uni is obscene on food production.

You treat all tundra and swamp as terrans. Again, higher pop gain, higher food.

The only ones you don't treat better are arids and deserts. Rats.

Between those four terrain types, you get quite an advantage in my mind. Aquatic is no longer an option for me, and I realize that this is a crutch of sorts. Fact is that it's just ludicrous early on, and makes worlds so much better. Add in terraforming, and it gets obscene - being able to have nothing but gaian worlds is pretty nice.

Being aqua, unified, telepathic can be pretty fun.

[originalbork]

Originally posted by gramians


As far as fishes go - yes, your plan does make production faster. But as I am trying to say, that is only relevant until the first telepathic cruiser is made. You need to invest a lot more - for troops, for food (since conquered races arent happy enough to feed themselves) etc. to capture and hold a planet.

4) Also, since waterworlds are so rare it is generally a bad idea to be a fish since their benefits are almost nil off of their homeworld. not really worth 5 pts to me. They would kick serious in pre-warp, where my telepaths sit on their duff with no one around to mind control - but then again, if you start as advanced, you had better defend your perimeter. I'm coming. And I'm ca-ray-zee.

Are we talking SP or Multiplayer? Because in SP advanced I think the mandatory is Creative-Tele screw the rest as the computer is stupid, silly AI.

If it is MP organic, ave or prewarp aquatic planets are very plentiful (terran, ocean, swamp and tundra all give me bonuses) and I only farm on tundra or above planets it is very effective. If it is Ave or Min rich I play a uni-tol-large rich and again production boom. The problem with uni-tele MP ave (pre it is dead) is your ability to beat a good production boomer ends at turn 45. If you don't get there the production race just outstrips you to the point your cruiser just doesn't matter.

BTW, good post.

[originalbork]

Tele is a near useless pick in MP because it hurts your ability to control the air and without control of the air you can't mind control the ground.

The opposite cannot be said. I only need 1 troop transport to take a planet. If I need to I'll bomb the pop out until I can take any planet with 4 troops I will.

Even though I wouldn't capture a superstar planet it is still a minor addition for me and a major subtraction for you.