tolerant discussion

[bakalov]

Arid and Swamp are the same;
after them come Desert and Tundra;
and then everything else ....

There are 2 paths for terraforming a planet (water based and arid), and Aquatic has a great benefit from the first one. If you get lucky you can have a Terran-like planet with just one cheap transformation. In the worse case you have to transform it three times to get the aquatic bonus to work.

[Brutalisk]

"Arid and Swamp are the same;
after them come Desert and Tundra;
and then everything else ...."

Bakalov, I am not sure what you tried to say there, but,

Arid and Swamp need only one transformation to be turned into Terran. And they are not the same. If you are not Aquatic, swamp offers very little space, if you are, it acts like a terran.

[Whoha]

Well I have to disagree. with the exception of some of the weapons techs they are not insignificant, you can upgrade all units(of a type) from the workshop so thats not so bad. Yea the game does have alot of complexity, but i'm reasonably patient.

Civ III you made the right decision on, now that they have patched it 10 times it may be playable, but I got burnt out on it.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Brutalisk


Bakalov, I am not sure what you tried to say there, but,

Arid and Swamp need only one transformation to be turned into Terran. And they are not the same. If you are not Aquatic, swamp offers very little space, if you are, it acts like a terran.

I think that is what he was saying. One terraform for Aqatic on a swamp.

[Brutalisk]

"Yea the game does have alot of complexity, but i'm reasonably patient. "

As I said, I do love complexity, as long as it adds to the game. I feel Alpha Centauri went over the top... the "changes" are so many that they become insignificant. I upgraded to the latest weapon, woohoo.. not really.

I saw a similar criscism on MOOIII vs MOOII, whereby techs in MOOII have a meaning whereas mooiii's techs are just "faceless". That's probably the word I am looking for.


VMXA: yeah I just felt bakalov's post was a little cryptic He does mention in his post further down the dry vs wet transformations... I guess to everyone else that is reading, when you are tranforming a planet and you forget what comes up next the description of terraforming actually tells you anyhow

[vmxa1]

BTW I sort of felt the same way about the tech in Smac. I played the game solid for a long time, but finally got buned out. I saw Pax and Moo3 as having so many techs that I could not really evaluate their worth.

Moo3 was very guilty of giving me an improvment, but no means to tell how useful it was. I dislike not having values. How can I determine is this is better use than the other thing without numbers?

I liked it in Pax where a tech added 5 to the planet pop, not stuff that was vague.

[Whoha]

The techs aren't meaningless, play a double blind game where you get IA early, and one where you get IA late, and notice the difference Silk steel is another one that you really notice since it has been a long while since you last got an armor. the resource cap lift techs again are critical.

of course I really don't have a problem with moo3 as is,excepting the pd bug, the various number bugs, and the tech "stuck" bug

[P-K]

I like SMAC and CIV too. Both good strategic games, but moo offers much more ! Hmm, I think we lost main subject here : tol topic !

PK

[Croesus]

Ok, I might be guilty of rezzing threads, but it is either that, or starting redundant threads.

I feel that tolerant is good, but too expensive. I prefer to go aquatic because at the begining you get +50% food, +3/4 population (matching the tolerant). With unification, you get 4.5 food per farmer, so you just need 2 at the begining. This means one less farmer, or one more worker.

Compare:
uni tol versus aquatic uni +1 prod (medium HW)
1. 2 scienctist, then you get 3 worker giving 14 industry
versus 4 workers giving (4*(5+1)*(50%) - (pollution) =
36 - (18-3)= 21 (50% more)
2. no scientist, giving you 5 workers or 23 production
versus
6 workers giving (6*(5+1)*1.5 - pollution) = 54 - 27+3 = 30 (30% more).

Suppose later you colonize a few worlds. To help you out, they won't be arid, swampy, terran, or ocean. You have 5 pop on two of them, and they are medium barren rich. Your max pop is 8, mine is 4. Assume you also have hydroponics (otherwise this really gets unfair). To support these world, you need 3 food each (so 6 total), and we will assume you have 10 pop on your HW.
your homeworld needs 5 farmers (to produce 15 food+2 for home hydro) and produces 14 industry from 4 workers, with 2 scientist. Each of your barrens produces 28. Total industry = 70.
I'll have 12 on my HW, and 4 on each barren, and have 3 farmers to produce 15 food + 2 for the Hydroponic, and have an excess 1 food. 7 on mining give 34 for the homeworld, and 22 for the expansion worlds. Total of 78 industry.

If the planets were abundant, then I'd get 15, while you would get 12, but my homeworld would get 34 still, while yours is still at 14.

With autofactories, you gain a slight advantage, until I get pollution processors. With 7 worker on my homeworld, I would get 62, and 34 on the expansions (this assumes an autofact and a pollution processor), while you would get 29, and your expansions would get 50. Totals are 130 (me) versus 129.

Addtionally, it might be more fair to give me an extra population because I was ahead 50% to 30% at the begining. (I could have spent the extra few turns building housing, or doing research into pollution processors).

So it seems that tolerant means that you can expand on rich (or richer) worlds better. Whereas aquatic + industry and rich means you are have a better start, and you are more flexible if you have to colonize a abundant world, or a swampy, arid, or ocean world.

[vmxa1]

Croesus don't hesitate to start a new thread, it does not cost anything.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Whoha
The techs aren't meaningless, play a double blind game where you get IA early, and one where you get IA late, and notice the difference Silk steel is another one that you really notice since it has been a long while since you last got an armor. the resource cap lift techs again are critical.

They are meaningless if you have no easy way to determine their value. If one is better than the other, but I don't know why or how much, it loses it value.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Croesus
I feel that tolerant is good, but too expensive. I prefer to go aquatic because at the begining you get +50% food, +3/4 population (matching the tolerant). With unification, you get 4.5 food per farmer, so you just need 2 at the begining. This means one less farmer, or one more worker.

Compare:
uni tol versus aquatic uni +1 prod (medium HW)
1. 2 scienctist, then you get 3 worker giving 14 industry
versus 4 workers giving (4*(5+1)*(50%) - (pollution) =
36 - (18-3)= 21 (50% more)
2. no scientist, giving you 5 workers or 23 production
versus
6 workers giving (6*(5+1)*1.5 - pollution) = 54 - 27+3 = 30 (30% more).

I am to lazy right now to go through this, but the UniTol with be +P and LHW most likely. It will be in a mineral rich world.

This yields 3 on food for +1 and if 5 on production it yields 30 industry and 9BC. You will not have any pollution you are tolerant.

You will be hard pressed to out produce this race and it will love all of those UR worlds. I would note that your race is a very strong race, but I just don't see any stronger than this one.

[Whoha]

Originally posted by vmxa1


They are meaningless if you have no easy way to determine their value. If one is better than the other, but I don't know why or how much, it loses it value.

I'll start a new thread about this.

[Whoha]

try out a hotseat game, uni-tol-prod vs aqua-uni-prod.

[vmxa1]

Whoa not sure who this was addressed to, but to what end?