Deus Ex (Late to the party)

[Alinestra Covelia]

If you like games that have a distinct philosophical spin to them, the Looking Glass Studios games are excellent.

Thief
System Shock
Bioshock

All have clear questions of two conflicting philosophies. Also, the answers they come up with are not always what you'd expect.

[Solver]

Democratic ethos still a ways to go over there, eh? The idea that folks making their own decisions is INTRINSICALLY good for them, not merely the best path to optimal decisions. (Sorry, i couldnt resist) Too bad the Denton character in DX gets such lame response lines, but ive commented on that before.

I am not a big fan of democracy the way it turns out, as a government principle It may be the best of the worst, but it's nowhere near good enough.

[lord of the mark]

@LotM:

1) I am not so sure about folks making their own decisions is intrinsically good for them. History shows that their are instances in which this seems doubtful at best. Since i came to know You as a very educated person, i dont have to point you to the most prominent example.

If you are talking about Nazi Germany that was an inexperienced democracy, and the actual appointment of Hitler as chancellor was via the undemocratic emergency powers provisions of the Weimar Constitution, which gave the President of the Republic additional powers.

But thats missing my point. Its that a democracy is not to be judged only by results. The process is of value in and of itself. The process leads to citizen involvement, to individuals taking responsibility for the decisions that effect their own lives. That is what adults do, to defer to a "smarter" governing class or individual is childlike, it ultimately lessens you as a person. This is not democracy via JS Mill or James Madison - its from Rousseau, Hegel, de Tocqueville (with his special focus on the social side benefits of the democratic process) and John Dewey. Its a different side to democratic theory, which is far too neglected.

And Solver, yeah I know the Churchill quote. Its an ironic reference to the imperfection of democracy, and a wise warning to INDIVIDUALS not to let the will of the majority override your personal judgement (see also Ibsen, Enemy of the People). Its NOT a program for researching superior forms of govt And certainly not a program for deferring to an all know AI

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE=El_Cid;5519814]
As for the existence or not of 'the Illuminati' , i guess much like many of the stories around these kind of things it is very hard and probably impossible to prove anything, enough black ops material is created that when push comes to shove someone in authority can just blow any arguement away by disclosing. That is after all one of the points of black operations.


The CIA tried to kill Castro in the 1960s. That was all revealed in public before congressional committees in the 1970s. You are talking about a centuries old conspiracy, vast historical records in multiple places being falsified for generations. What you are talking about has nothing to do with any "ops" conducted by any intelligence agency. Its fantasy.


How about something like the free masons? They have a similar history to the Illuminati(formed in the medieval period, mercentile/financial institution, close to seat of power etc).


They were not a financial institution, and by the time their members had any real influence they werent a mercantile institution either. They were a social organization for freethinking, liberal individuals before declining into a harmless lower middle class (at least in the US) fraternal org. They have been attacked by the some of the most vile extremists of left and right over the years. I have known masons personally, and I have respect for them, and none for those who attack them.

So imho something 'evil' is calling the shots. That's just the world we live in. True democracy is actualy dead, and has been for some time, you may have to go all the way back to ancient greece for the only time a full democratic model really did shape a society.


I respectfully disagree. I think the society that evolved in the US and UK from the mid 19th century on was far more democratic than slave ridden Athens.


Imho we now live in some kind of corporate fuedal state(in the democratic west that is). Corporation's control our government's policy - reasons for war, GM propagation, reasons behind global warming,

I work for a US govt agency. Until a couple of weeks ago we largely ignored global warming. Now its the top of our agenda. Why? An election.

Corporations have influence, as lobbies (as do many other groups - even here in the US , and where you live labor is far more influential than here) Thats no secret though, its about the most visible in your face thing there is. Genetically Modified crops are propagated, of course, cause theres no good science against it. None that has persuaded the electorate here, certainly. Every issue you raise public opinion has largely been decisive on.


reasons behind genetics etc, all the big challanges of our era fall right at the foot of our corporate states, and most of their agenda is about control of 'us' in one form or another. The question is will we wake up to this and do something about it before we have destoyed our future? Probably not i would say.


I work on (among other things) global warming issues. Do you? Do you have the foggiest idea what democratically elected govts are actually doing?


And games like Dues Ex I think are important atleast for getting people to wake up a bit to the realities, even if they dont quite hit the mark - they dont really need to. Are we servants of our governents, or the other way around? what do we want for ourselves and our children? etc

We need more games like Dues Ex, we have enough 'dumb console games' imho, we need 'brain food games' now

I think Ive made clear in this thread the many errors or misleading facts in DX. At some point you have to admit when a piece of work fails to make its case, when it is itself dumb. It doesnt just miss the mark, it convincingly makes the case that conspiriacy theorizing is not based on truth, that it itself is deceptive.

Ironically Warren Spector, designer of DX, now works for Disney, part of Disney/ABC one of the large communications conglomerates in the world. So was he serious, or just using this stuff to make money?

[Unimatrix11]

LotM, i, too, work on global warming issues (among other things), and what i see our gov doing right now, is giving out 2.5K€ for any car getting thrashed. They call it an ´environmental bonus´ on the base, that the new cars that will be bought to replace the old ones will have lower CO2-emmissions.

To me, what it really is, is a ´consumption bonus´. The eco-balance of that deal is, depending on the individual case of course (age and CO2 emmissions of the new/old cars), doubtful at best. The purpose is not to protect the environment, but to help the car manufacturers. That became very apparent, when the first draft for that law was made public, in which big (new) cars where actually granted bigger write-offs on the taxes than small ones (proportionally).

To me, democracy today, is quite a farce. Just today, i read, that exactly those banks, who came under the ´protection screen´ of the state, have donated to ALL the major parties (despite their financial difficulties). Why would You donate to all parties? Well, to make sure, it doesnt matter, who is being elected... That´s the handy thing about the US-system - just two rooms to lobby in.

It seriously makes me sick, to hear each and every day about things like the ´consumption-climate-index´ and such, but never hear anything substantial as to why we have to consume all the time. Why does the economy perpetually has to grow? I know it. Most people dont. And they dont even ask. And they are not given a hint. And that makes me sick. They come up with ´conjuncture (=economic growth) packages´ by the gov, and after it´s all decided the media goes raving about increased state-debts. D´uh ! It was apparent, at least for germany, when the crises ´broke out´ that it would lead to increased state-debts. And know they are talking about paying it off, again, quickly. Right - with what? The reduced tax-income for the next few years? The increased interest they have to pay for next few years? Why dont they tell people, straight and flat, that under the current system, the debt-question is one of ever growing difficulty (since it always grows) and one of destribution - but not one that could be solved for good. I feel like being subjected to a massive propaganda machine, whose purpose it is, to distract the people from the fact, how corrupt and unsustainable the current system is and to make people believe in it. The goals of politics are never questioned - it´s economic growth. Has been since i can think. But noone ever asks why (or even: if) we really need it, when it is, in ultimo, the certain way to doom (ecologically as well as socially). But i start going in circles now...

[El_Cid]

Lots of good points LotM, and I have time to come back on a few of them, mainly because i enjoy the these kind of discusions, but i wont do so much here as to derail the DX element

"What you are talking about has nothing to do with any "ops" conducted by any intelligence agency. Its fantasy." - lotm

black ops is a modern term, but neither is it a new idea(Machevellian theory etc) nor fantasy. Dissinformation happens, in all socities, in all times(historicaly). Dont get hung up on the 'illuminati' thing, they could have used another 'vessle' to the same effect in the game i suspect.

"They were not a financial institution, and by the time their members had any real influence they werent a mercantile institution either. They were a social organization for freethinking, liberal individuals before declining into a harmless lower middle class (at least in the US) fraternal org. They have been attacked by the some of the most vile extremists of left and right over the years. I have known masons personally, and I have respect for them, and none for those who attack them." - lotm

Yes they are an ideological institution, but they also use their membership to further aid other members dealings, sometimes beyond the legal framework. I dont believe they are 'evil' - they are kind of like a guild, and where ever people form groups of like minded individuals it is normal to see them help one another out. My father took exception to some things they were doing in his constituancy that non of his constituants wanted, but it was all a done deal and not even the law would stand against this deal. He found out pleanty about that kind of thing to his cost.

"I respectfully disagree. I think the society that evolved in the US and UK from the mid 19th century on was far more democratic than slave ridden Athens." - lotm

both 'you' and 'I' had slaves until very recently also. 'I' started it and 'you' perpetuated it. And even when slavery was abolished, Martin Luther King etc? remember? Now 'our' slaves are in the developing world, and while not technicaly a slave as they do get paid(mostly) - they may as well be slaves in many cases. It just out of sight, out of mind for most people.

"I work for a US govt agency. Until a couple of weeks ago we largely ignored global warming. Now its the top of our agenda. Why? An election." - Lotm

Well I think that doesn't reall mean its all good. It's been quite painful to watch bushes administration blatently ignore the majority scientific view on this subject. Now it may be too late? It's difficult to say isnt it? But yes I'm hopeful that many issues that didnt fit with the corporate interests that backed up your last president(and to which/whom he was a puppet i would argue) can now be addressed. Your new president has so much to do to restore faith in america(from a world view, not talking internaly so much), and that is vital work imho. Still I think your corporations now have the grren light to start drilling for oil in the antartic dont they? that was one of Bushes last enviromental gifts to his 'friends'.

Also when sea levels start to rise(as they will - I've actualy seen it happen before my eyes in london over the last 6 years or so), The financial costs to many of the worlds largest coastal cities will be huge, so my sceptical self thinks that is a big driving force behind our governments policies on this kind of thing, still it is probably too late as vested interests counter to sound enviromental long term planning have been calling the shots, i would say.

" I work on (among other things) global warming issues. Do you? Do you have the foggiest idea what democratically elected govts are actually doing?" - lotm

No one pays me if thats what you mean, but i come from a family that were quite ahead of the curve on enviromental issues. Grandfather learnt his art at Kew gardens, was a member of many enviromental organisations when many people were still unaware of the issues. That got filtered down to my mother and onto the rest, and will continue to do so. I can talk about the plight of the bee problem to you(and what that could mean for us if they do die out), to industrial waste contamination of food soils, to the dustbowl effects of mass-industirlaisation of farming in the USA, to the longterm harm from using chemicals like DDT(my grandfather was part of the lobby that helped get this chemical banned in most countries) and the way the agro-chemical companies have caused as much harm as they have good over the years, to what will happen to the atlantic conveyor system when the polar ice caps melt enough that the extra water in the sea that will effect the levels of salination that can cause that system to stall and put the uk and much of temperate europe (and some of northern USA on the east coast) into an enviromental system more like sweden and norway etc. Yes I know about the enviroment, on many levels. I know that there is appitite in certain corners of many governments to tackle these kind of issues, but i also know how hamstrung that process can be by lobby groups from the alternative viewpoint, the big oil/agri companies etc. It's going to make it very hard for our governments to react quickly enough imho. But i hope they do.

And finaly Dues Ex is just a game - its a great game infact, lots of fun, interesting where many games are not etc, but it is only a game, so i didn't expect too much from it - and overall rate it as one of the classic games, a game eveyone should play(along with Civ/Xcom etc).

Did Wareen Spectre do it for the money? probably - that why i'm looking into making games, and if i can help 'educate' a little bit along the way(see thread about 'what have games taught you' or something like that), then i can see no harm in that. It's certainly degrees of magnitude better than making just another excessivly violent shooter that we all seen before. I suspect he had read some 'fun' books and decided to look at making a game based around them, i cant see the harm in his work in the case od Dues Ex - look at the kind of conversation we have ended up in from talking about this game! I doubt that could ever happen with a 'halo'/'gears of war' etc

EDIT: @Unimatrix11 - awareness is growing, it may happen too late but it may also happen just in time

[lord of the mark]

LotM, i, too, work on global warming issues (among other things), and what i see our gov doing right now, is giving out 2.5K€ for any car getting thrashed. They call it an ´environmental bonus´ on the base, that the new cars that will be bought to replace the old ones will have lower CO2-emmissions.

To me, what it really is, is a ´consumption bonus´. The eco-balance of that deal is, depending on the individual case of course (age and CO2 emmissions of the new/old cars), doubtful at best. The purpose is not to protect the environment, but to help the car manufacturers. That became very apparent, when the first draft for that law was made public, in which big (new) cars where actually granted bigger write-offs on the taxes than small ones (proportionally).
.

The trade off on GHG between lower CO2 emissions from new cars, and the emissions caused by building new cars, is something that the enviro policy community is well aware of.

Do govts make mistakes? Yes? Do they respond to lobbying? yes. All of which is well known and has nothing to do with black ops or conspiracies.

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE=El_Cid;5520456]
black ops is a modern term, but neither is it a new idea(Machevellian theory etc) nor fantasy. Dissinformation happens, in all socities, in all times(historicaly). Dont get hung up on the 'illuminati' thing, they could have used another 'vessle' to the same effect in the game i suspect.


I didnt say they were modern. I was doubting the ability of any "black op" esp a vast conspiracy, to be kept secret over long periods of time.


"Yes they are an ideological institution, but they also use their membership to further aid other members dealings, sometimes beyond the legal framework.

A group that does networking, like so many. They lent money to Mozart when he was dying. Thats not like a vast conspiracy to rule the world.


"I respectfully disagree. I think the society that evolved in the US and UK from the mid 19th century on was far more democratic than slave ridden Athens." - lotm

both 'you' and 'I' had slaves until very recently also. 'I' started it and 'you' perpetuated it. And even when slavery was abolished, Martin Luther King etc? remember?

US 1865. UK, 1832, I think.

Now 'our' slaves are in the developing world, and while not technicaly a slave as they do get paid(mostly) - they may as well be slaves in many cases. It just out of sight, out of mind for most people.


We are comparing it to Athenian slavery, remember? That is a society based on real slavery, not rhetoric about the best wages for 3rd world workers. Some athenians were poor. Some were slaves. The poor athenians knew quite well the difference between "may as well be slaves" and REALLY being slaves, even if you dont.

"I work for a US govt agency. Until a couple of weeks ago we largely ignored global warming. Now its the top of our agenda. Why? An election." - Lotm

Well I think that doesn't reall mean its all good. It's been quite painful to watch bushes administration blatently ignore the majority scientific view on this subject.

The point is they could ignore it cause they were elected by people who agreed, or didnt care. Whereas it changed because of an election. My point, which you KEEP overlooking, is NOT that US policy is alway good. Its that the standard poli sci theories of how democracy in the US works (elections important, lobbies and interest groups also important) explain what goes on quite well, while the conspiracy stuff that DX supports, and that YOU seem to support, is sheer and utter BS, and shades off into the most vile hatreds.



" I work on (among other things) global warming issues. Do you? Do you have the foggiest idea what democratically elected govts are actually doing?" - lotm

No one pays me if thats what you mean,

No, what I mean is your discussion climate change gives the strong impression that you are clueless as to what govts are actually doing.


that why i'm looking into making games, and if i can help 'educate' a little bit along the way(see thread about 'what have games taught you' or something like that),

If you want a games that gives you better ideas of how democratic capitalism actually works, you might try the SimCity series, or even Victoria (Im told Vickie Rev makes the economic model more realistic) You would be well advised to stay away from DX, as that is in fact negative learning.

[lord of the mark]

DX refers to the Knights Templar. Its good to know there are some folks who want to protect us from the evil legacy of the Knights.


"Harry Potter and the Zionist Conspiracy"

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/Page/VideoPlayer&cid=1194419829128&videoId=1233050192571

From Iranian TV

watch the whole thing, but dont drink near your keyboard while you do.

[lord of the mark]

Some more material on freemasonry

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry_under_authoritarian_regimes#Nazi_Germany_and_occupied_Europe

I used to belong to a synagogue that rented a building from a lodge of the Prince Hall Masons, a black free mason group here in the US. The Prince Hall Masons were a great group of guys, who in addition to engaging in black-jewish outreach, IIRC did very important charitable and character building work in the baltimore black community.

The Wiki notes a controversy about masonic policemen in the UK. Odd how they can be a conspiracy that runs the UK, yet Jack Straw of all people was against them. We have had no such controversy here.

[lord of the mark]

Here is a document that strongly asserts that democracy and freedom are illusions, and that Masons among others use control of world banking to dominate the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion

Feh!

[lord of the mark]

Hamas is also big on combining jewhatred and antimasonry, in the long tradition of the protocols and the Nazis



From the Hamas charter:

"They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. "

[Alinestra Covelia]

Antimasonry, is that like making buildings out of antimatter?

[DrSpike]

It doesn't matter as long as you +6.

[lord of the mark]

Antimasonry, is that like making buildings out of antimatter?

The first president nominating convention in US history was held by the Antimasonic party. Something I didn't learn from a game