FG: Nascar IX: Pit Stop Part II

[snoopy369]

How about somethnig like this (S means could be sand):

        bbbb
       bxxxxb
      bxxxxxxb
     bxx    xxb
    xxx      xxx
   xxx        xxx
   xxx         xxx
   xxx          sss
   xxx           sss
   xxx            sss            10
   xxx             sss
   xxx              sss
   xxx               sss
   xxx                xxx
   xxx                xxx
   xxx                xxx
   xxx                xxx
   xxx                xxx
   xxx                xxx
  xxxxx               xxx       20
 xxxxxxx              xxx
 xxxxxxx              xxx
 xxxxxxx              xxx
 xxxxxxx               xxx
 xxxxxxxx               xxx
 xxxxxxxxx               xxx
 xxxxxxx xx               xxx
 xxxxxxx  xx               xxx
 xxxxxxx  xx                xxx
 xxxxxxx  xx                sss	30
 xxxxxxx  xx                sss
 xxxxxxx  xx                sss
 xxxxxxx  xx                sss
 xxxxxxx  xx                sss
 xxxxxxx  xx                sss
 =======  ==               sss
 xxxxxxx  xx              sss
 xxxxxxx  xx             sss
 xxxxxxx xx             sss
 xxxxxxxxx              xxx	40
 xxxxxxxx               xxx
 xxxxxxx                xxx
 xxxxxxx                xxx
 xxxxxxx                xxx
  xxxxx                 xxx
   xxx                  xxx
    xxx                  xxx
     xxx                  xxx
      xxx                  xxx
       sss                  xxx	50
        sss                  xxx
         sss                  xxx
          sss                  xxx
           xxx                 xxx
            xxx                xxx
             xxx               xxx
              xxx              xxx
               xxx            xxx
                xxx          xxx
                 xxx        xxx	60
                  xxx      xxx
                   bxx    xxb
                    bxxxxxxb
                     bxxxxb
                      bbbb

b is a proposed 'banked turn' - does one of two things
* each X squares turns you left 1 (ie, you hit 2 banks = turn left, or 1, or 3...)
* If you hit b in your turn (any amount of times) you may use an extra left on that square if you choose.

Gives turbo people a bit more of a chance getting around tight curves without losing speed ... is an advantage to everyone, but particularly turbo.

This track is about as long as RAH's. I'd probably shorten it if we're going 4 laps, or leave it as is for 3 lapes ...

[Spaced Cowboy]

Looks tasty

[rah]

too much sand but i like the concept of banked curves. having sand before tight turns i'm not sure of.

[snoopy369]

It has 20 squares of sand, as opposed to 17 in yours ... but I can cut it down certainly. I thought breaking it up in bits would help. (There will still be a way to get through the sand somewhat, it's not 100% S just "potential S" what I showed on the screen.)

I thought sand before the curves would help turbo at the expense of the sway folk - it will slow everyone down, essentially providing bonus B's for the turbo folks while forcing the sway folk to accelerate (possibly wildcarding). From what I could tell, one of the big balance issues is that Sway doesn't really ever have to use wildcards unless they feel like it, while Turbo *has* to use them around the curves ...

[vovan]

Heya, folks. I was away for the weekend. Looks like I missed a bunch of discussion. I will read through the posts and such. I'm willing to GM a race, if you guys would like me to.

I'd also like to say thanks to rah. I loved the race. We've come quite a ways since the days of F1.

EDIT: I decided to address points as I go through the thread, so this might be something of a long post. Please bear with me.

Originally posted by rah
Should we discuss scoring.

I don't personally like the idea of scoring races for a championship-type thing, because:

1. It puts pressure on existing players to play all the races, or at least as many as they can.

2. It deters new players from entering races, because some people might be very much discouraged by the fact that they have 0 points whereas someone else might have 50. I'd prefer for people to be able to join any race they see sign-ups for, than wait a couple races till the end of the championship and what-not.

Originally posted by rah
I would propose going back to a speed penalty for crashes. (just one on the speed) to throw off planned runs.

First, I like the idea of putting the crashed racers on the same spot. I also sort of like the idea of giving top-speed penalties for crashes, because it makes sense. The problem with planned runs of course is that some people will have such high top speed, that a penalty won't hurt them, so the real issue to address here, IMO, is how do we make it so people don't reach such a high top speed that it is virtually unattainable. One idea is that when you come into pits, maybe you have to chose whether you are getting extra WCs or increases in top speed?

Originally posted by rah
Can you accelerate past your max speed at the end of your turn if you know you're hitting sand.

Although I see your reasoning that for consistency reasons you should not be able to do it, I would vote yes.

Originally posted by rah
Are we going to keep the Pit feature and should any mods be made?

Keep the pits? Absolutely.

Originally posted by rah
Is there any other way to beef up the turbo option to make it more attractive, or is that going to have to be a feature of the track?

It seems to me you just have to play with the track.

Originally posted by rah
Going off the track rules?

Ok, so going off track is weird. If you think about NASCAR, they have the walls, so I imagine that if you hit one, then the race is pretty much over (I haven't ever watched a NASCAR race, so I don't know for sure), whereas if you consider Formula 1, they have walls that are far off track, so if you go a little bit off the pavement, then you can easily get back, and it won't hurt your car much. However, if you go far off track, then you might get stuck in the gravel and not be able to get back on track or even hit the wall, which usually means the end of the race for you.

Now, let's think of this in terms of gameplay. First of all, I don't like the idea that you put the car back on track in the same direction that the track is moving in. I cans ee the reasoning that you don't want the people to go off track two turns in a row, but this really results in very exploitable loophole, especially with little penalties for going off track. Secondly, I don't really like that the cars get put back on track at all, but it seems to me this is unavoidable for gameplay reasons.

So, here's what I would do:
1. Put the cars back on track in the same direction they were moving in when they left the track.
2. Keep the same penalty for going off track, but
3. When designing the circuit, put walls around the track at the turns, two-three tiles away from the pavement, and have a huge penalty for hitting the wall, like halfing top speed or something, but I don't think this would be very much necessary, because #1 will address the main problem, IMO.

Originally posted by Spaced Cowboy
My issue is with the restriction of special powers.

I think this is a good point. What better way to improve the performance of turbo cars than allowing special powers in the pits? That way, they can shoot out of the pits and that can provide quite an advantage.

Also, while I'm on the issue of the pits... I think crashes should be allowed in the pits, though they shouldn't generate oil slicks.

Originally posted by Sparrowhawk
Sand trap was greatly hindered by having too many sand bags and not having a clear path through. Both would have helped the Turbo cars unless the clear path required many turns, in which case having a clear path would have still given the advantage to the Swaybars.

It seems to me that if there was a clear path through the sand alley that was so straight it didn't require special turning powers, then it would be essentially the same as having a clear straightway. Then there is no purpose in the sand. However, if there was a clear path that was twisty, and there were far fewer sand bags, then the turbos could plow through the sand using their extra acceleration, and sways could twist and turn on the clear path. Like I said, that would have required a clear path, and far fewer sand bags, so you wouldn't get penalized more than one speed per turn for plowing through instead of carefully driving around the sand. Otherwise, turbos don't get a whole lot of a bonus. (Well, come to think of it, they still benefit, as they can regain lost speed quicker, so they get out of the sand and accelerate better.)

Any way, I don't know, I really am not a fan of the sand bags concept.

Originally posted by Sparrowhawk
you need to also give a wild card bonus to the performance package when going through the pitts.

...

I also like crashes creating oil slicks with no pre-placed oil

Indeed on both accounts.

[vovan]

Alright, now that I have addressed some of the points I thought needed mentioning in this thread, time for something new. I have given some thought to the rules on wild cards and movement options, as well as the issues of track length.

It seems to me that in order for the pit strategy to play out to full potential, there need to be more laps. However, more laps means either (a) longer race, or (b) shorter laps. It seems to me that the length of this race we had now was just about right, maybe a wee bit too long, hence a longer race is not very desirable.

Shorter laps, on the other hand, can be achieved through one of two options: (a) a physically shorter lap, which is not very desirable either because then the short straights will hinder the performance of turbos further, or (b) faster movement around the track. Now, the main problem with faster movement around the track is the length of orders. Even a length 12 order is not that easy to process. Imagine a length 25 order. Plus, longer orders would be harder to come up with.

Assuming we are willing to take that penalty, I would revise the rules as follows: instead of WCs, you have Action Points, which replenish at every turn. You can use one action point to steer or accelerate. When you’ve used up your action points, you can still steer or accelerate, at the expense of top speed. Also, there is no explicit limit on the number of steers / speed changes per turn – it is only limited by your action points and your willingness to sacrifice top speed in the long run.

This way, people can move around the track faster and make more laps even on a longer track. The differences between the cars then would be in the cost of an action in terms of action points.

[vovan]

Well, I've made up a little track.

	  ********
	 **********
       *************
      ****     	 ****  	 	    *****
     ****  	  ****	 	   *******
     ****  	   ****	 	  *********
     ****  	    **** 	 ****  ****
     ****  	     ****	****  *****
    ******     	      ****sssss****sss****
   ********  	       ****   ****   ****
   *********   	       	**** ****    *****
   **********		 *******       ****
   ******** ** 	       	  *****	       	****
   ********  **		      	       	****
   ********  **		      	       	****
   ********  **		      	       ****
   ********  **		      	      ****
   ********  **		      	     ****
   ********  **		      	    ****
   ********  **		      	   ****
   ********  **		      	  ****
   ********  **		      	  ****
   ********  **		      	  ****
   ********  **		      	  ****
   ********  **		      	  ****
   ********  **		      	  ****ss    ******
   ********  **		      	  ****	s  *********
   ********  **		       	  ****   s*********** 
   ******** **			  ****	 ****	 ***** 
   ********** 			 ****  	****	  ***** 
   *********  			 **********	   ***** 
   ********  			  ********	     ****
    ****** 			   ******      	     ****
     ****  					   ******
     ****  					  ******
     ****  					 ******
     *************************************************
     ************************************************
     ***********************************************
      ********************************************

I believe it is shorter than the last one, so we should be able to do more laps. Also, it has two looong consecutive straightways, which the turbo people should love. It also has some nice twists for the sway people; and for those who don't like to play around with the steering wheel much, there are shortcuts which aren't used much and are thus dirty asphalt, which will slow you down (aka sandbags) - this should help the turbo people some, too. Other than the shortcuts, there are no sandbags or oil slicks or anything hidden out there.

[rah]

action points

and if no hidden obstacles and no speed penalty for crashing, people could almost map out their whole race prior to starting. Takes a lot of fun out of it.

[vovan]

Originally posted by rah
action points

and if no hidden obstacles and no speed penalty for crashing, people could almost map out their whole race prior to starting. Takes a lot of fun out of it.

Right, right, you clearly have to introduce a degree of unpredictability to the race, so people can't just send out all the orders in advance and be done with the game. I do agree that crashing should result in speed penalties (as I think I may have said somewhere above). However, as far as hidden obstacles are concerned, I don't think they work very well, because they are only hidden on the first lap, and at that point, the drivers are still close enough together that enough unpredictability is generated by them trying to outrun and not hit each other. At the later stages of the race, when the players are stretched out around the field, and precisely when you want to throw in some randomness, by then the hidden obstacles aren't hidden any more, so they don't exactly cut it. That's one reason why I don't like the idea of the hidden sandbags.

[rah]

If we want to get radical.
Have a traditional sandtrap alley, but change the pattern every lap.

[vovan]

Originally posted by rah
If we want to get radical.
Have a traditional sandtrap alley, but change the pattern every lap.

That would be evil. I'm not sure we want to be that radical.

[rah]

I toyed with that idea last race but decided not to at the last minutes. The one main benefit is that it should help those that have fallen behind and keep the pack a bit tighter. Having the leader blazing a new trail every lap will let people stay close.

[Spaced Cowboy]

Or a longer track with multiple pits = no predictability (for a one lap race, that is).

[rah]

You might as well eliminate all the turns the shortcut will help you avoid. They won't be used, since the shortcuts are easier to navigate. except maybe the 5S one for the sway bar types.

[vovan]

Indeed. Maybe a non-circular track could work well with multiple pit stops...

In case anyone has missed it, there's a sign-up thread for the next race here:

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=134703