Complexity in FPS games

[Solver]

Can someone explain what's up with all the people who insist on having complexity in FPS games? With the release of Doom3, its critics did some criticism that I found simply unbelievable. They said Doom3 has weaknesses such as lack of alternative firemodes for weapons and linearity of levels.

What's up with that? I thought that linear levels were a blessing... and even though you could only go in one way, you never felt like that, and the levels were designed diversly. What do people want nowadays? Do they want puzzle-oriented levels such as some of those in Half-Life (though I should mention that the majority of HL fans consider those levels to be the worst, and the best levels the ones with intense fights)? Or what do they want, Morrowind-style non-linearity? Nothing I hate as much in FPS as getting lost somewhere with nothing to shoot.

Shooter games are that, shooters. They should provide monsters for you to shoot. If I want a game to run around, jump and pull levers, I'll play Tomb Raider.

Now, Half-Life 2... yes, it will be different from Doom3 in many ways, yet, apparently, it will be a classic shooter. With much to kill - yet a classic Half-Life game, with a good and well-told plotline. I expect it to be very succesfull though...

Can someone tell me what are people looking for in a FPS game now? Why isn't lots of monsters to shoot in a nice environment enough?

[Adagio]

I defently don't want just another shooter game. I prefer fps games to not only have a good story, but also different ways to reach the ending(s). To be able to have a choice of where to go next; Should I go to the right or to the left? Both ways leads to the same place, but you may encounter different enemies/goodies
And I would defently prefer there to be less enemies, but more suprising enemies. In Doom 3 you quickly learned how to spot the places where the enemies where hiding, so you knew when to shoot where before seeing/hearing any creatures... One enemy who manages to scare me is better than 10+ enemies attacking me at once

But I wouldn't want to; goto x, pull lever y, jump to gate within z seconds

[Adagio]

But what I'd defently like to see (best for mindless fragging MP deathmatch, but could be used elsewhere also) is 'different' maps:

Has anyone here played Serious Sam 2? Remember the second last map (IIRC) in the first episode? At some point you where walking in a tunnel, but the funny thing is, you could walk on the sides, so at some point you had an enemy just above your head, even though he also had his feet on the ground (seen from his perspective) while for the player it would look like he walked on the ceiling...

Or one of the MP maps for Sin; The map was just a box with lots of stairs etc, but not large. But there where many doors and when walking through one, you came out of another door, but that door could be on the ceiling or in the floor just next to you, so you ended up walking on the wall. A staircase could be used both ways because of this: Seen from a players perspective one player could stand 'above' the stairs (as you normally walk on), while another player could be just below it, while the have the feet on the same part of the stairs, but the heads in opposite directions...







And why are the 'weirdo' maps so seldom? I know that a few people have made some very fun maps for UT/UT2K3/UT2K4 where the map was one huge living room or bathroom, while the players are small enough to kinda 'look like' a toy-soldier... those where the most fun maps for UT+, there should be more of those maps...

[Solver]

I defently don't want just another shooter game. I prefer fps games to not only have a good story, but also different ways to reach the ending(s). To be able to have a choice of where to go next; Should I go to the right or to the left? Both ways leads to the same place, but you may encounter different enemies/goodies

I would be fine with that, as long as I reach the same place either way. As long as I don't have to spend my time finding a way to get further. A good plot now is important, yes. At least some background and something happening during the game.

And I would defently prefer there to be less enemies, but more suprising enemies. In Doom 3 you quickly learned how to spot the places where the enemies where hiding, so you knew when to shoot where before seeing/hearing any creatures... One enemy who manages to scare me is better than 10+ enemies attacking me at once

Doom3 is the only game/movie to have really scared me to date. Despite the fact that I knew where monsters were likely to be - that wasn't the scariness of it. I need many enemies, though. Fighting off one, two or three is too easy, unless they're very strong. But that's almost a boss fight then.

I am satisfied now with shooters that don't deviate too much from the classic formula. And I still don't like deathmatch....

[Adagio]

I don't play much deathmatch either, because it seems to lack fun (They're all too serious), but when I find a good (fun) map and some to play against (in that map) and maybe add some different rules from time to time (Like having a "only rocket-launcher" or "only knifes" fight)

[General Ludd]

Half-Life is the standard to which all FPS games must compete against.

[Solver]

The standard is actually Doom. An interesting tidbit, how initially, it seemed like Half-Life's story was just an improved version of Doom's...

[Panzeh]

If I play an FPS, it's Flashpoint.

The majority of 'tactical' shooters just don't get warfare right like Flashpoint does..

[DrSpike]

Depends what you mean by complexity. Any significant non-linearity is a waste of time in shooters I agree, but there should be a wide range of enemies and weapons/fire modes.

[Solver]

You know, I find that many weapons with many fire modes, espeically thought-up, is just too much. I like how Doom did it, I like how Half-Life did it, with many weapons, but very diverse.

[DrSpike]

Well HL most would consider as having diverse enough weapons and fire modes. I haven't seen anyone advocate many more.

[Adagio]

I don't remember how half-life did it, but I hate the way cs did it, with 6+ different snipers, 8+ handguns, 5+ shotguns, etc... I prefer there to be only 1 (max 2) different weapons of the same type

[Solver]

The good part about HL was that weapons were, mostly, real. I don't like having three different kinds of a shock-ultra-pulse rifle in a game.

HL had the crowbar for melee, two pistols (diverse enough, one a semi-automatic Glock with low power, another a powerful Magnum), a submachine gun (MP5), a shotgun, the RPG, hand grenades, trip mines and satchel charges. Also the crossbow with a scope for zooming in, great power, slow fire, and silent. Added to that were 2 energy weapons (nothing funky, just powerful beams) and an alien weapon. It was a good weapon arsenal. Not too little, not too much. Each weapon did its own job. It wasn't like 5 different submachine guns. Want raw power, take the shotgun, want rapid fire, take MP5, etc.

[Traianvs]

Originally posted by Adagio
But what I'd defently like to see (best for mindless fragging MP deathmatch, but could be used elsewhere also) is 'different' maps:

Has anyone here played Serious Sam 2? Remember the second last map (IIRC) in the first episode? At some point you where walking in a tunnel, but the funny thing is, you could walk on the sides, so at some point you had an enemy just above your head, even though he also had his feet on the ground (seen from his perspective) while for the player it would look like he walked on the ceiling...

Or one of the MP maps for Sin; The map was just a box with lots of stairs etc, but not large. But there where many doors and when walking through one, you came out of another door, but that door could be on the ceiling or in the floor just next to you, so you ended up walking on the wall. A staircase could be used both ways because of this: Seen from a players perspective one player could stand 'above' the stairs (as you normally walk on), while another player could be just below it, while the have the feet on the same part of the stairs, but the heads in opposite directions...

And why are the 'weirdo' maps so seldom? I know that a few people have made some very fun maps for UT/UT2K3/UT2K4 where the map was one huge living room or bathroom, while the players are small enough to kinda 'look like' a toy-soldier... those where the most fun maps for UT+, there should be more of those maps...

I'm playing a lot of Serious Sam 2 lately, especially coop mode which is a lot of fun, and you can die as much as you want, you'll simply respawn within a second!
SS2 is packed with those tricks of pushing you into a spiked wall, bottomless pits, rotating rooms, monsters teleporting in your face and the like. On top of that many of the mosnters are pretty cool. I absolutely love the pumpkin headed farmers armed with chainsaw. The sound of such a chainsaw charging your back is just cool; and by cool, I mean totally sweet.


Btw, there are few DM maps in SS2, but at least a few of them have these funny tricks in them, in which you can jump on the ceiling etc..

[Spaced Cowboy]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
Deus Ex - King of FPS'

More of a FPS RPG hybrid, that being said, it is one of the best. For pure FPS, I liked the first max payne...just the right length...and I actually finished it because of this. NOLF was also good for this reason.