Complexity in FPS games

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Solver
That's something I still can't understand, despite having tried to. Deathmatch just never seemed fun to me. Maybe because deaths happen often there, you don't go alive for 10 minutes, no feeling of becoming better and stronger. I've played through single-player campaigns of some astounding games numerous times, but deathmatch...

With small numbers of skilled players deathmatch is awesome. I played Quake3 for over a year without getting bored. Much more longevity than SP.

[Solver]

I wonder whether my inability to get into DM comes from my lower-than-average skills at it. Maybe it would seem fun to me if I was among the skilled players, I don't know. Then again, skilled players become skilled with practice, and DM didn't seem fun enough to me to play for many hours.

On the contrary, in Wolfenstein:Enemy Territory, I am a pretty skilled player (not the uber-top-player, but definitely skilled), and I enjoy that game a lot due to its... non-DM nature.

[Traianvs]

DM is nice for those few times when you don't have a lot of time but like to frag some headz. Otherwise ctf is most likely the best game out there.

About halflife AI: I only noticed they ducked when I fired at them, but flanking manoeuvres? Eh.. I just charged in and killed those *****es before they had a chance to do anything . They just gave the impression of flanking because of the taunts and speech they cried out when heavily wounded etc..

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by child of Thor
Is Halo regaurded as an FPS in this case?

What else would it be? A TBS?

[BustaMike]

Originally posted by General Ludd
Why bother with any other game? Because Quake 2 sucked. And death matches are about as boring as playing through the single player game repeatadly.

That's why people play the Half-Life mods isntead.

You only say this because you suck at shooters

[BustaMike]

Originally posted by Solver
On the contrary, in Wolfenstein:Enemy Territory, I am a pretty skilled player (not the uber-top-player, but definitely skilled), and I enjoy that game a lot due to its... non-DM nature.

Best multiplayer shooter ever

And it's free.

[Solver]

Originally posted by BustaMike


Best multiplayer shooter ever

And it's free.

Ahh, you play it too, nice .

Really has a number of advantages. Is fast paced as most shooters, yet you don't die every 30 seconds there. Is team-based, which is a must for me, and is objective-based. Also, has different classes for variety, is free, and is very fun indeed.

[DrSpike]

I like team based stuff as well as DM. A few years back all I played was Team Fortress on a LAN, which was great fun.

Many of the comments about DM here are misleading though. If you jump on a public server full to the max with people it's just a mess, and I can understand why people would find it too frantic and not fun.

Get skilled, play DM on private servers with a limited number of clan members and it rules. It's VERY tactical, despite what some people have said.

[Solver]

Yep, but it's the get skilled part that requires playing through public servers, and you don't exactly go into private servers at once. Though I believe that skilled player DM is tactical... still not as much as in team-based shooters, I assume.

Another reason why I like Enemy Territory. Even on public servers, people display teamwork, more or less coordination and tactical skills. On private servers (I have access to two), it's even more awesome.

[BustaMike]

The one thing you forgot to mention about Wolfenstein: ET is that your character will get upgrades based on your performance. Engineers go faster then get flack jackets, medics get better healing and then adrenaline, and the soldiers end up being able to carry both a rocket launcher and a machine gun... good god that's mean when you hook it up.

I've found that when I play, 98% of the time I have the highest battle sense of any player in the match. It's great when that hits level 4 because then you can see the landmines without having to rely on a covert ops to spot them for you. Maxing light weapons is sweet, too. Dual pistols!

[pg]

Originally posted by Solver Maybe because deaths happen often there, you don't go alive for 10 minutes, no feeling of becoming better and stronger.

I think it's because you suck, heh. You have a definate sense of power in deathmatch. DM is all about the down and the up player, which is all relative power. The down player is going to get spawn fragged a lot because he is not in control of the level. The up player will be running the items and killing the down player. Your goal is to become the up player and then frag the down player more than he does to you when he is the up player. If you are much more skilled than the down player he will never become the up player, so he will get spawn fragged over and over again. This is how DM works in all Quake games.

Yep, but it's the get skilled part that requires playing through public servers, and you don't exactly go into private servers at once.

Actually you should do that if you want to get skilled. I only become skilled after I started playing with other skilled players. If you are a nice guy and persistent someone will eventually mentor you I bet. I've helped many players come to understand deathmatch better over my years of playing.

Though I believe that skilled player DM is tactical... still not as much as in team-based shooters, I assume.

I'd say DM is more tactical/strategic for a simple reason in DM you usually have resources to control where as most tactical shooters you just play rounds or until someone is dead(correct me if this is wrong). I am not famliar with ET but my understanding is it's like kinda like TF. Most people don't understand Quake or UT because it's fairly abstract compared to the single player aspects. It's a totally different game and it doesn't help that many times DM is super fast so it seems chaotic(though it's not if played correctly meaning no FFA w/ 100 people on a small map).

[DrSpike]

Nicely put.

[Solver]

The one thing you forgot to mention about Wolfenstein: ET is that your character will get upgrades based on your performance. Engineers go faster then get flack jackets, medics get better healing and then adrenaline, and the soldiers end up being able to carry both a rocket launcher and a machine gun... good god that's mean when you hook it up.

I've found that when I play, 98% of the time I have the highest battle sense of any player in the match. It's great when that hits level 4 because then you can see the landmines without having to rely on a covert ops to spot them for you. Maxing light weapons is sweet, too. Dual pistols!

Many servers make those levels harder to come by. I typically play a Medic... and I'm happy if I can get to level 3 medic in one map. That means I'm having a good day.

Oh, had some fun last night - played on Goldrush, 1v1. I was Axis, of course. Managed to hold it off for 30 minutes, too - was very different from the usual hectic fire all around in ET, and quite fun.

I think it's because you suck, heh. You have a definate sense of power in deathmatch. DM is all about the down and the up player, which is all relative power. The down player is going to get spawn fragged a lot because he is not in control of the level. The up player will be running the items and killing the down player. Your goal is to become the up player and then frag the down player more than he does to you when he is the up player. If you are much more skilled than the down player he will never become the up player, so he will get spawn fragged over and over again. This is how DM works in all Quake games.

So basically for someone who decides to first try out DM in 2002 and joins a random server, it's not going to be any fun, because he will constantly get raped. I feel DM is pretty uneven that way, probably some of the hardest game types for new players, unless they specifically find a newbie server.


Though it's very interesting to hear a perspective on DM from DM players. It's nice to hear that it only seems chaotic to inexperienced players like me, and can be very different .

[pg]

Solver: have you ever watched any demos of top clans or duelers? You can see through their pov(point of view) and see all the tactics and strategy going on. It might be a bit hard to follow large games like 4v4 tdm or ctf but I would think you would probably understand the basics in duels fairly fast by watching a few demos. Demos are a good tool to learn if you are new to DM. I actually enjoy a good demo as much as a good sports match.

So basically for someone who decides to first try out DM in 2002 and joins a random server, it's not going to be any fun, because he will constantly get raped.

Yep, if he is totally outclassed which happens a lot. DM is very skillful IMO which is why you usually see one guy owning an entire FFA server or 50-0 results in a 1v1. You'd think DM would be bad at higher levels of play with it's UP/DOWN dynamic but you get lots of really close games.

I learned the basics of DM from FFA. I moved up to clan play once I could regularly dominate FFA servers but if I wanted to get into DM today I'd skip FFA entirely.

I feel DM is pretty uneven that way, probably some of the hardest game types for new players, unless they specifically find a newbie server.

Yeah, it's hard for new players I agree. There is really no such thing as a newbie server though. Most servers are public and there is no stopping the best players from playing where you are. If you can beat games like Doom 2 on ultra violence you should be able to play DM. It's just a matter if you want to or not and can stand up to losing a million times before you start to win(which is psychologically hard for some people).

There are leagues for lesser skilled players but you'd need to join a clan to play in those. If you are serious about learning it's much easier nowadays than way back when DM was new. All the information is in the open now and with so many demos to watch it's much easier to learn.

[DrSpike]

There are tonnes of servers (for Quake 3 even today, over 5 years since release) you can learn on, that will have plenty of newer players. You do have to have the mentality whereby initially getting stuffed makes you want to come back and win, not say "oh this is too hard" and quit.

Try to pick servers that are not overpopulated, but have enough players. Remember the less players there are the more tactical and skillful it is and the more the weaker player will get pasted. However too many players and it's chaos, which is fun sometimes but not for too long.