DESIGN: Wonders

[Maquiladora]

This thread is simply to discuss which wonders are overpowered or underpowered.

I've attached a scan of the wonders.

If we keep in mind that "building everywhere" wonders are generally overpowered already, as they give the building bonus everywhere, AND save production time in each city.

However I don't think "building everywhere" wonders should be obsoleted, as it's confusing for the player. But they do need to be a lot weaker as a result.

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Here is what I believe are obviously overpowered:

Aristotle's Lyceum - doesn't obsolete, +20% science for rest of game.

Solution - +10% science, obsolete at Classical Education.

Central Matter Decompiler - "building everywhere" overpowered. Matter Decompilers are already an excellent building (-50% production pollution). They effectively allow you to increase your production with much lower pollution costs, that everyone else is struggling with.

Solution - difficult one, Matter Decompilers give -25% production pollution?

Chichen Itza - doesn't obsolete, -30% crime for rest of game.

Solution - obsolete at Theology (divine law?).

Field Dynamics Lab - doesn't obsolete, +35% science for rest of game.

Solution - +10% science? this is still a lot.

Genome Project - doesn't obsolete, +10% prod., +10% health (+1HP) for units.

Solution - only +10% Health.

Globe Sat - worldwide radar coverage, speaks for itself...

Solution - difficult one, maybe double build cost.

Gutenberg's Bible - doesn't obsolete, +2 happiness forever, eliminates conversion.

Solution - only give "Eliminates conversion"?

Zero Crime Bill - doesn't obsolete, -60% crime for rest of game.

Solution - -30% crime, obsolete at Neural Reprogramming?

Internet - "building everywhere" overpowered. Effectively +20% science (Computer Center) for rest of game.

Solution - +10% science for computer center?

Ramayana - +3 happiness for rest of game? yeah that's overpowered alright.

Solution - +1 happiness, obsolete Age of Reason.

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Underpowered suggestions coming later.

[Maquiladora]

Now i've attached a scan of the wonders...

[Maquiladora]

Underpowered:

Pyramids - +100 gold per turn to the civ that builds it. It doesn't obsolete, but that's underpowered still, considering it costs the same as Ramayana. Over 500 turns thats only 50,000 gold.

Solution - increase gold? Or it could use the TreasuryInterest flag if its available for wonders? Then obsolete the wonder at something.

That's about it. The goldperroute wonders are somewhat underpowered, especially without more permanent non-piracy agreements, but there's no need to change them yet.

[Ekmek]

treasuryinterest I think I made it for OnePerCiv buildings but it would be easy do to add it as a wonder. In playtesting it though I noticed that it would seriously crank out gold. I think civ3 capped it at 50 gold we can cap it at 1000 or whatever people think appropriate. not tough cold just an if gold > 1000 statement.

as for overpower I'm opened to siuggestions. we can do this in the AE mod and it is possivble to do civ3-like smallwonders so we make it a building but available to all civs, once.

[Maquiladora]

Originally posted by E
treasuryinterest I think I made it for OnePerCiv buildings but it would be easy do to add it as a wonder. In playtesting it though I noticed that it would seriously crank out gold. I think civ3 capped it at 50 gold we can cap it at 1000 or whatever people think appropriate. not tough cold just an if gold > 1000 statement.

The human could really churn out gold...

as for overpower I'm opened to siuggestions. we can do this in the AE mod and it is possivble to do civ3-like smallwonders so we make it a building but available to all civs, once.

I wouldn't mind adding that to some new wonders, but it does take away the point of a wonder if everyone can build it.

I know those types of national wonders are supposed to allow you to specialise your cities more, but my concern is the AI would fail miserably at it. Without specific extra code to tell it where to build them anyway.

[HuangShang]

well i think some should just be cost increases esp. for things like the bible

build everywhere would not be very overpowered if they are obsolete early enough, ie. make all of them last just long enough to that it is better than building it everywhere but barely. It is kind of painful to make the building weaker to compensate for a wonder. In the case of computer center, it is late in the game and at that time the buildings have gotten better along, and I assume this is because of some inflationary effects

Ramayana is too powerful, but I dont like making it obsolete. +1 happiness forever is not that unbalanced when u have stop one of your 2-3 cities for a long time in the early game.

the real problem with overpowered wonders is that small nations cant actually use them to catch up no? is there a way to orient wonders to balance games more? as opposed to balancing effects?

as for the pyramid, more gold is fun, but i had always wanted a +growth for the early game (like stonehenge). perhaps the pyramids, which IRL is undeniably the most ageless wonder (in fact we dont know how old it is and it still looks in good shape), should be a new type of wonder that gives a little of a lot: gold (100 still, its so small), growth (+2.5%), production (+1%), little happiness (-5% war discontent + -10% capital distance)

[Maquiladora]

Originally posted by HuangShang
well i think some should just be cost increases esp. for things like the bible

Anything that receives a happy bonus is already an excellent wonder, because it allows the player so much flexibility, with the empire sliders, or helping controlling pollution later, or using less garrison in your cities to attack someone. Extra happiness all the game is very effective, and allows the player to relax.

+2 happiness for Gutenberg's Bible would be too good, that and immune to conversion. IMO GB already has a nice flavour with only preventing conversion. You either need it or you don't. If it's got +2 happiness for the rest of the game, you definitely want it. It removes the choice if a wonder is that good.

build everywhere would not be very overpowered if they are obsolete early enough, ie. make all of them last just long enough to that it is better than building it everywhere but barely.

As i said i think obsoleting a "building everywhere" wonder is confusing and perhaps even annoying for the player. If i build Hagia Sofia for all Shrines, then it obsoletes somewhere later I have to go back and rebuild all my Shrines? It's just annoying that way.

Also people are still going to build the buildings if the wonder goes obsolete, so if you're getting +20% sci with Computer Centers then it goes obsolete, why not just let the wonder give straight +20% science and not Computer Centers?

The flavour of the wonder is that it gives the bonus of the building, and the bonus of not having to build the building. If it goes obsolete, it removes half the point of it.

It is kind of painful to make the building weaker to compensate for a wonder. In the case of computer center, it is late in the game and at that time the buildings have gotten better along, and I assume this is because of some inflationary effects

I agree, it's not the best way to solve the problem at all.

As I mentioned above, with really powerful "building everywhere" wonders, perhaps the only solution is to give the bonus straight (no building everywhere), but make it go obsolete. So the Internet gives +10% science instead, and goes obsolete at say Neural Interface for example.

For Central Matter Decompiler it's more difficult, because we can't make wonders reduce pollution.

Ramayana is too powerful, but I dont like making it obsolete. +1 happiness forever is not that unbalanced when u have stop one of your 2-3 cities for a long time in the early game.

Any wonder requires stopping your city building something so that's not an issue IMO.

If Ramayana was +1 happiness all game, it would be the best wonder again. It would remove choice from the wonders.

the real problem with overpowered wonders is that small nations cant actually use them to catch up no? is there a way to orient wonders to balance games more? as opposed to balancing effects?

It is a problem that wonders can just turn into a gift for the most advanced/biggest civs. Afterall if they research it first they build it first.

We really need to make it so wonders have to be chosen carefully, you can't simply start building every one that you research. We could say only 1 or 2 wonders per city? It would remove a lot of the cheesey-tactics involved in using a mega-production city to build all your wonders.

as for the pyramid, more gold is fun, but i had always wanted a +growth for the early game (like stonehenge). perhaps the pyramids, which IRL is undeniably the most ageless wonder (in fact we dont know how old it is and it still looks in good shape), should be a new type of wonder that gives a little of a lot: gold (100 still, its so small), growth (+2.5%), production (+1%), little happiness (-5% war discontent + -10% capital distance)

There is a food wonder missing early in the game, but i think that's for a good reason. Stonehenge was one of my favourites in CtP1. Extra growth is basically extra everything, and that early in the game, it would turn you into a powerhouse. I think that's why there isn't one.

Also remember we want to change as little as possible to achieve more balance and interesting gameplay. IMO Pyramids should keep its CtP2 flavour of giving gold in some form.

[Ekmek]

don't forget i also have excludedbywonder as a flag. Some wonders shouldnt appear in the same cities as others (like Temple of the Sun and the pyramids I say)

this also prevents the wonder-making super cities which i think is a problem

[Maquiladora]

E, I would like to prevent no more than any 2 wonders per city, but I think I may be the only one. It makes sense from a realism and gameplay perspective though. How many cities in the world contain more than two wonders of the world, from any civ game?

It also presents the human with a real choice. Can you rely on finding enough production-heavy cities to build all the wonders you want, or do you wait for the ones you really want and only build those in your big production city?

It also spreads them out between each AI, giving the human more strong opponents.

[HuangShang]

I see what you mean by choosing the right wonders; I agree. Then Gutenberg's Bible should not give happiness.

There is at least one free building wonder not listed, the Sophia (which may be overpowered because it is eternal happiness and lets cities go basilica first). I like that we give the wonders its own, balanced effect instead basing it buildings, but just another idea to consider is that we just give a lesser building, ie. the internet allows you to build computer centers in any city, guaranteed. The great library would have to say that the internet gives all the publishing you ever needed though.

We should use both excludedbywonder and wonder limit. It isn't fun the wonders don't have some geographical identity too. I definitely have never built 3 wonders in the same city and I often would do things like making sure a city's second wonder fits with the existing one. It is more fun.

[Maquiladora]

Originally posted by HuangShang
I see what you mean by choosing the right wonders; I agree. Then Gutenberg's Bible should not give happiness.

There is at least one free building wonder not listed, the Sophia (which may be overpowered because it is eternal happiness and lets cities go basilica first).

You're right I forgot that. The only thing that makes me think its slightly less overpowered than say an eternal Ramayana +1 happiness, is that it comes later in the tree, and Shrines can be built by everyone else quite quickly. There's no question though, it's still overpowered.

This means either replacing it with another less effective building (i seriously can't think of one that fits), or giving Hagia Sofia +1 happiness for a limited time like Ramayana. I don't like the idea of copying another wonder though.

Another option (and i think this works best), is to lower the price of the Shrine. First of all its too expensive anyway compared to Theatre, secondly lowering it would give slightly less benefit in production saved. Considering that everyone builds Shrines everywhere anyway, its already a temporary benefit wonder, so the effect wouldn't be that big.

I like that we give the wonders its own, balanced effect instead basing it buildings, but just another idea to consider is that we just give a lesser building, ie. the internet allows you to build computer centers in any city, guaranteed. The great library would have to say that the internet gives all the publishing you ever needed though.

Well it's a good idea to give a lesser building, but it's difficult because often none really fit. Publishing Houses in this case doesn't quite fit either IMO.

Either we give The Internet a straight +10% science bonus, or we could use the "GoldPerBuildingAnywhere" flag for wonders. It could give gold per Computer Center in each city multiplied by population. So a civ of 400 pop (realistic for that time in the game), mutiplied by 20 Computer Centers is an extra 8000 gold per turn, if you have The Internet. That's if i understand it right. Or does it work on a city-by-city basis? Only the city pop that builds a Computer Center counts towards the given gold? That would give less gold and probably be better.

We should use both excludedbywonder and wonder limit. It isn't fun the wonders don't have some geographical identity too. I definitely have never built 3 wonders in the same city and I often would do things like making sure a city's second wonder fits with the existing one. It is more fun.

I wouldn't like to limit the identity of wonders to city styles for example, we're rewriting history afterall, not recreating it. But i agree, building lots of wonders in one city is boring, and it often favours the leading civ to research it first, and throw them all in the same production city.

E, is there currently a way to limit a city to any two wonders only?

[Protra3211]

What about the AI and how it builds wonders.In the early part of the game the AI can win many races for wonders.But as the game reaches the modern age the human player (if you manage your cities right)should be able to win all races for any wonders.Now in some mods the score for wonders is changed to a lower score.Might help to rebalance the game.
But what about a list of wonders the AI can only build in the late part of the game.Like a UN or space race wonder. A wonder that would start a count down(so many turns) that leads to the end of the game.There is a science wonder already in CtP2 that does this .

[Maquiladora]

I think the reason the AI gets wonder in the Ancient age is because it gets the advances way before you. On Impossible the AI nearly always gets Aristotle's Lyceum and Appian Way, because they often get to Philosophy and Trade respectively first.

Ramayana is about 50/50 as even though the AI always starts with Religion, it takes them quite a few turns to build another city or decide to start wonder building. Whereas I normally go for Ramayana as soon as my 2nd city is built.

Hagia Sofia is another the AI gets against me as I don't go for Theology as early as the AI. Hopefully though with the new advancelists.txt for the AI, it will research a similar path to a human, that covers all strategies. Of course once we balance the governments, we can change the AI advance paths to each of its chosen governments, so it doesn't waste time researching them all.

As you say, as it gets into the Modern it's easy to pick up all wonders, as the AI is either level or behind you on tech. I wonder if the AI gets the warning message for someone else almost finishing a wonder and decides to switch to a new one? If the AI did that, then it would certainly get some wonders, even in the modern age. Just like the human switches wonders earlier in the game.

I wouldn't mind a simple "Space Race" wonder in the early modern. In Civ the Alpha Centauri victory was only about building many things anyway, so why not just have a single wonder that costs a LOT? At least small scientific civs can go for it if it's one big wonder, because you don't need many high production cities building spaceship parts.

The AI would have to be told that endgame buildings are allowed to be longer than standard buildings/wonders, then it could work. Or perhaps just raising MaxWonderBuildTurns in strategies.txt, although this wouldn't be perfect, it would (i assume) guarantee the AI goes for it (and any other wonder) when it's researched.

Of course we also need to have an option to turn it off before the game starts.

[Ekmek]

Originally posted by Maquiladora

E, is there currently a way to limit a city to any two wonders only?

excludedbywonder is all I have now. the way the code works now it stores the wonders in an array so I think I can get a buitlwonders->num() code. I'll check it out

[LemurMadness]

The Ramayana should be +2, I agree with that, but I'd say Wonders should keep an specific bonus, like the original CTP2 does. Obsoleting Wonders, well, CTP1 did had wonder obsoletion, CTP2 doesn't? Can Wonders be obsoleted throught a period of time, instead of advances? Sounds more reasonable, like the bonus of Advance Reached (Concrete +5%) / # of Buildings Constructed of Same Type (Theaters). The "Building Everywhere", didn't worked properly last time I checked (Yeah it was about 200 builds ago), and it doesn't seems ok for Civilizations with few cities with high population, so I agree with the "Double Effectiveness of X Buildings".