AOM3 Is Out

[hexagonian]

I never saw a claim that civ4 was played on the highest level by the AOM loyalists - and I never accused the loyalists of making that claim.

But they continue to miss the focus of the point I have been trying to make...

I am asking that the AOM 'pros', since they consider themselves avid and expert gamers, to APPLY the SAME exact standard to civ4 that they apply to AOM when critiqueing difficulty of the game.

That has yet to occur...They tell about playing AOM on the highest level and have yet to do so with civ4 to provide a totally objective comparison in this area.

In fact I had said in the past...do so, and you GREATLY solidify the status of AOM.

What is ironic is that this is one of their MAIN contentions with civ4 (this issue of 'gameplay challenge', and system performance are the 2 biggies) - but yet they continue to dodge it.

The bitterness must really run deep...over a game no less!
-----------------------------

My personal issues with AOM are not with difficulty, but they have to do with mechanics of gameplay, which are more subjective in nature and thus are preference issues.

Difficulty is not a preference - only in the choice you make regarding what level to play at...

My question about the science/possible diplo victory was partially answered with Angrybowen's game, but I will ask how many cities he needed, actual playtime, and the map size to win this victory. My ORIGINAL contention was not that there weren't different options, but that the game funnels you into a Bigger is Better...TM mode no matter what the choice you make to win it.

If this is wrong I will admit it.

It does not address that the 'points' option is weighted mainly toward military expansionism. Again, I acknowledge that this option does not appeal to me because I know that Bigger is Better...TM drives that option, and I gave the reasoning behind that.

I can tell you that most of victory options in civ4 (diplomacy, points (and this one is usually the preferred barometer for me), culture, space race) are not primarily driven by Bigger is Better...TM - the only ones that do are conquest and domination, which I would expect to be the case anyway. And those choices, as to what I want to do to win the game can, and will evolve and change throughout the course of a single game. I may start off with one focus and determine that I want to do something else later on. That to me is a true reflection of history, because mankind did not envision where he would be now 4,000 years ago.

And it does not change the ultimate fact that I enjoy civ4 for what it offers, and will continue to play it as my TBS game of choice at this time...and also, I have little personal interest in revisiting AOM myself. Not enough interest in investing valuable personal time in another game when I am more than happy and challenged with the one I am playing now....

In short, I am happy with the various options as they are presented in civ4. They work for me, and that is all that matters...

I am here mainly to ask questions, (which I admit I do in a VERY blunt and direct way) ask for clarifications, and provoke discussion of viewpoints, so that other fans can determine which game they would like to play, especially since these issues sometimes are not clearly spelled out.

TBS gamers are probably the brightest and most intelligent gamers, and they can make up their own minds.

They certainly are not mindless morons!

[smithldoo]

The first quote (in Dale's last post) from Stan refers to a worldwide AOM tournament he is designing that will feature a prize from Apolyton. This presumably will feature a set map, opponents and other conditions that would be unusual compared to a normal game of AOM.

Yes, I understand it will be a standard game, saved at the start of turn 1, AOM III with a few extra bits. Nothing major.

In fact I had said in the past...do so and you put away a great many detractors.

By Hex.

Problem is, as we have already discussed, I have to do an upgrade, pssible a major one and you YOURSELF have already said no game is worth that (reply to Albert, AOM forum).

I did basically finish 4 games at Monarch level, even though each one took as long as a full AOM gigantic campaign (mainly due to poerformance, but that is not my main gripe). I got turned off by all those workers spamming the map ad nauseum, suiciding artillery units, all those promotions which did not change the way combat is resolved in that you select what you think is you best attacker and the computer auto selects its best defender (bit pointless IMHO), those same promotions which mean I had to keep picking through the stacks to find the next attacker (come on now Hex, surely after a while even you get fed up with that). But these are just my opinions.

One of the main issue I see is that you generalised several times that you can't win AOM with less than 60 cities, even more. Angry has not posted all the final details, but he kept to Tribunal Empire, ended up building 40 cities, but need not have bothered with the last 4 (as they were still small and contributed nothing to his science quest). That means he had just over half the cities to research 3 times as many advances as civ 4. Does civ 4 run for 400 turns (that seems to stick in my mind).

Talk about prejudice though, i see that you have already made up your mind re the outcome of his game without waiting for all the details

BTW, I hope I'm not the guy with the "underspeced" video card.

by Generaldoktor.

No I am. I am preparing a more detailed response for Dale about this since he chose, after taking our discussion re performance off the forums, to put it back there.

I notice he does still not detail the use of the 2nd cow. The original question was what is the 2nd cow worth if it is not in a city working radius and you cannot trade it. The answer is NOTHING. Whereas in AOM every food resource is worth -3% on the chance of famine in your cities and +3% on the chance of harvest. Get 10 outposts on food goods, no matter whheter they are in city working radius or not as long as they are in your territory, and you get +1 happiness for empire.

I notice he will not come straight out and admit that in civ 4 the only way to control territory is by cities. Unlike AOM.

Points to a trend IMHO.

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by smithldoo
Problem is, as we have already discussed, I have to do an upgrade, pssible a major one and you YOURSELF have already said no game is worth that (reply to Albert, AOM forum).

Then admit that your analysis is incomplete, rather than continuing to bring it up as a flaw.

Put it to rest once and for all. Or get someone who can, if you will not upgrade your system.

I brought up the issue regarding the other AOM options because of my own questions. There had been no reports about how these victories have been achieved, since no-one had tested them (this was stated as fact).

Angrybowen played through it (...so he saved me the time of doing it myself - and since he enjoys the game, he gets to try another aspect of the game).

I asked for clarification, because my main point was tied into specific parameters, and have stated that I will admit I am wrong. Where's the prejudice in that???

My bad, I forgot you do not like to read my posts.

Dale was right...I'm over the one-sightedness of you guys.

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by smithldoo
...you select what you think is you best attacker and the computer auto selects its best defender (bit pointless IMHO),

Basically that is what CTP does - lines up best attacker against best defender. You do not choose defenders in that game either.

Originally posted by smithldoo
...come on now Hex, surely after a while even you get fed up with that.

Nope - preference...

edit: ...because in civ4, you are offered choices as to what promotion to give. You are NOT offered choices in AOM when your unit become eligible - you merely get a generic combat boost.

...and it only takes a second to make that choice in civ4.

[Generaldoktor]

Originally posted by smithldoo


Yes, I understand it will be a standard game, saved at the start of turn 1, AOM III with a few extra bits. Nothing major...

I got turned off by all those workers spamming the map ad nauseum, suiciding artillery units, all those promotions which did not change the way combat is resolved in that you select what you think is you best attacker and the computer auto selects its best defender (bit pointless IMHO), those same promotions which mean I had to keep picking through the stacks to find the next attacker (come on now Hex, surely after a while even you get fed up with that). But these are just my opinions...

I notice he does still not detail the use of the 2nd cow...

Just a little more from me. I brought up the subject of the AOM tournament as Dale As Detractor was using Stan's quote about it out of context to apply to AOM, or at least AOM III, in general.

All of Smithldoo's criticisms of Civ4's actual playout above could have been written by me, if I was willing to still wrack my brain for gifted prose to describe my continued frustration with that product.

Actually the 2nd cow was mentioned as a potential food source for a city, so it does have some utility in C4, but not nearly as much IMO as the resource system allows for multiple resources in AOM III.

Re: "Underspeced video card" I'm glad it wasn't me referred to. I am actually as tired of defending my own decision not to upgrade, ( "no game is [definitely] worth that," ) as I am defending my system problems that date from the installation of Civ4, or criticisms of the play.

What's done is done. I continue to play Civ4, though on a reduced schedule because a) I'm liking AOM better b) Precleaning the cache, shutting down background programs and waiting for the interminable startup, while I hold my breath while it wrenches my monitor settings around is almost too ritualistic for my taste; I've prepared less for sex in my bedchamber with a new woman, to be blunt; c) I still am not able to play my builder's game, except on relatively low levels which earn the contempt of Poly stumpmasters, especially post-v.161, which ended "chop" and some civics breaks and also seemed to increase the viciousness of barbarians, for one; d) would be dissatisfaction similar to the other play criticisms offered by Smithldoo above. I might be rattled out of my preferred game as I learn AOM too, but right now its the new toy in the cabinet.

I now retire to seek transcendent enlightenment in the Paradox of the Second Cow.

[Dale]

Smithldoo:

If you notice, I did not mention your name, but used your situation as a counter to the claims by AOM fanbois that Civ4's hardware issues are Firaxis' fault. Which incidently is what brought me to this thread in the first place. The fact that your video card is under speced just shows quite simply that it's not their fault. I in no way was trying to drag it back into the forums, just showing that on this issue which you guys continually bring up, can actually be a dud arguement. I also notice no one else took up my offer about their hardware issues.

Resources:

I can't believe I have to revisit this. EVERY resource in Civ4 gives a bonus. EG: cow. Unfarmed, it adds +1 food to the tile. Farmed it adds +2 food, +1 hammer to the tile. Connected to a city that does not have cows yet, +1 health.

The 2nd cow resource can be important. True, if connected to a city which already has a cow you do not get the extra +1 health, but you do get the extra food and hammer. BUT if your civ is on two islands, and the 2 cows are spread across the islands, then each island will now have access to the +1 health. As to if the second cow resource is outside the city working radius, then more fool you for not ensuring it is. That's bad city placement.

Combat probs:

As smithldoo brought up, I agree there's problems with the way combat works, specifically (in my opinion) the 1-on-1 combat method and artillery are just back-to-front. My combat mod changes this so artillery are returned to being defenders (not attackers) and adds stack attacking similar to CTP's method.

Angry's science game

I await the final details of his game, but do ask why the hell does it stop so early in the game??????? Science victory is build the spaceship, or reach future techs. He's stopping in the medieval period. What the? (to quote Rove). But, I reserve comment on that to that thread when the time comes.

Dale

[Generaldoktor]

I don't know about smithldoo, but I mention the video card controversy because I believe it is Firaxis' job, having created a game series that people want to own and participate in, to make sure that product doesn't behave improperly or make the host computer behave out of whack, when it's running or in general. They haven't done that.

When I buy a battery for my car, I expect the car to run properly also, with the battery attached to it. Otherwise, (assuming a battery problem; and all my analogous computer problems date from install of Civ4,) it is the battery manufacturer's fault. Same deal; there is an implied standard of performance with the product. Perhaps a better analogy would be a new car radio or stereo, since Civ4, unlike batteries, isn't necessary to operate the whole unit. (I could uninstall, but I don't want to, as I wouldn't a new car stereo. "One more turn" and all that. )

To repeat again. No other software, neither multi-media, or game, or protection software, or office software; nothing taxes my computer like Civ4 and my general problem with the monitor software dates from the period of the installation of Civ4. Civ4 itself runs slower, with more interruptions, than any other game I have ever purchased and there have been enough comments published similar that it has to be the design and not the performance of my single unit. I will not install new video software just for Civ4 unless the existing software completely fails, in which case I will then be very mad.

[Dale]

So is it the battery manufactorers fault if you install a AA battery into a car and it doesn't work?

Or is it the stereo makers fault if your car's battery is running at max and the stereo requires an extra X charge to run which isn't available?

Come on, be reasonable. All I see about the so called hardware issues is *****ing for the art of *****ing.

Civ4 runs quite happily, with no slowdowns in the late game on a 2 year old PC with a low quality modern video card.

Dale

[Protra3211]

So any new 256 card should do it? Costs around 135 dollars plus extra ram 50 dollars.
Looking at a Nivdia Geforce. With EU3 coming I need to do this any how.
I see your adding some of the options that are in CtP2 to Civ4. Thats great I recall the first Diplomod mod for CtP2 it was the beginning to many new mods and opened the door to more improvments to the AI.
With you working along with others on Civ4 I hope the pattern is the same.
AOM 3 is the high point of CtP2. We have yet to see what can be done with Civ4. The Reality Mod looks intresting. Maybe a mod that allows for bigger maps at lower settings that dont strain your system.

[Ekmek]

AoMites,

I have uploaded a new version of my Graphic Diplomod. It creates a diplomacy interface similar to that in Civ3 (large leader heads). The only file it will replace is civ_str.txt
(or for AoM AOM_civ_str.txt) and it will add a lot of picture files (a lot of leaderheads)

Please report any problems (or praise )in the interface thread found in this forum. Enjoy!

E's Graphic Diplomod


Also, I guess the word didn't get out but my terrain graphics are compatible with AoM3 (some tell Tellius). Atleast I looked at the file in the tiles folder that Stan has for AoM3 download and added his tileimps. You can get the terrain graphics here:

E's Terrain Graphics

[Solver]

I'll finally post... been following this for some time, very intesting. I have a short point to make.

It just saddens me that there is now some sort of a rift among the CtP2 players. CtP2 was a flop with the general public, and for most of time since its release, the game had been kept alive by a small crowd of dedicated players. And now we have a situation of a split community, though I don't see why it has to be this way. I'm really with Dale on this one, and I remain a civver, a player who loves both Civ4 and CtP2. But I do consider Civ4 to be the best game at the moment.

[hexagonian]

Basically that is what I am saying... (and Solver, it was your civ3-CTP comparison thread that did start me in going beyond the simplistic 'civ sucks...CTP is great' and vice versa debate a few years ago...) To try to have an unbiased viewpoint and to look at games in an objective manner.

One of the reasons why I am still here is that for a long time, I was considered a high-profile CTP 'loyalist' who did my share of civ-blasting, so to turn around and say that I like civ4 may be a surprise.

Can I put my finger on exactly why I like civ4?? There are a bunch of reasons, but the simple fact is that I am enjoying it. That to me is what matters, because if I do not enjoy a game, I do not play it.

...and I refuse to lie about it simply to get people to play AOM.

I think AOM is a great game - and it really is too bad that it did not come out 2-3 years ago. But AOM is like any other game - there are weaknesses and strengths in it. I have posted my thoughts, with the hope that the readers here can figure out if AOM is, or is not for them.

...and my viewpoints on the game are merely my opinions. You are free to agree or disagree.

If they enjoy AOM, great!!! But I'm playing civ4 now.

AOM simply is not the end-all for me - and I now find that no game is - most likely, in a few months I probably will have moved on from civ4 too...

It may be the end-all for other people. If so, I'm glad they have found something to pour their lives into.

[Solver]

I typically play games for years, the really good ones. I really don't think I will stop playing Civ4 until Civ5 comes out. I also haven't completely forgotten about CtP2 or SMAC - though admittedly, ever since I got my hands on Civ4, I haven't played any of the older Civ games.

About AOM... without meaning to say that it's a bad game, I think I can say what exactly it is that I like less. AOM still has the bigger-is-better gameplay. Civ4 did away with that, not completely, but largely. I love that change in Civ4 so much that playing a game where bigger is always better immediately feels like a step back. But I don't even see how a fair point could be made to say that AOM is a bad game.

[smithldoo]

I can't believe I have to revisit this. EVERY resource in Civ4 gives a bonus. EG: cow. Unfarmed, it adds +1 food to the tile. Farmed it adds +2 food, +1 hammer to the tile. Connected to a city that does not have cows yet, +1 health.

by Dale.

Pretty obviously because you don't read. It has taken Generaldoktor to point out for you Dale that the 2nd cow in the example is worth nothing. Note I said in the example.

Basically that is what CTP does - lines up best attacker against best defender. You do not choose defenders in that game either.

by hexegonian.

But what happens to the surplus units a side has, do they sit there and twiddle their thumbs? The single most irritating gaming experience I can remember for nearly a decade was my first game of civ 4 when a single barbarian archer approached my city for the first time and headed immediately for my quarry next to my city. My first reaction was, no worries, I have 3 defenders, 2 warriors and an archer, we will take care of him. Then when he got there, I suddenly remembered, I have to do 1 v 1 and thought to myself. What a load of absolute bull, 10 years on and this is all you can come up with. What total and utter crap IMHO.

Solver, have you played a game of AOM III? or any AOM to the end?

Re: "Underspeced video card" I'm glad it wasn't me referred to. I am actually as tired of defending my own decision not to upgrade,

by Generaldoktor.

Would you like me to find the quote where Hex also said that in a reply at the AOM forum some months ago. Here I am now condemmed for simply agreeing with Hex can't win whether I agree or don't agree.

As far as Dale is concerned, I am NOT satisfied with his qualified withdrawal (rather than apology) over saying that angry, stan and myself are full of shi1t. I am keeping my powder dry on this one and more will be heard soon.

I also note Dale has used the word "History" in regard to civ 4. More will be heard on this one as well.

[Ekmek]

Just curious anyone try my graphic diplomod with AoM3. I want to make sure there were no conflicts with it.