AOM3 Is Out

[Generaldoktor]

Originally posted by smithldoo
by Dale.

Pretty obviously because you don't read. It has taken Generaldoktor to point out for you Dale that the 2nd cow in the example is worth nothing. Note I said in the example...

But what happens to the surplus units a side has, do they sit there and twiddle their thumbs? The single most irritating gaming experience I can remember for nearly a decade was my first game of civ 4 when a single barbarian archer approached my city for the first time and headed immediately for my quarry next to my city. My first reaction was, no worries, I have 3 defenders, 2 warriors and an archer, we will take care of him. Then when he got there, I suddenly remembered, I have to do 1 v 1 and thought to myself. What a load of absolute bull, 10 years on and this is all you can come up with. What total and utter crap IMHO...

As far as Dale is concerned, I am NOT satisfied with his qualified withdrawal (rather than apology) over saying that angry, stan and myself are full of shi1t. I am keeping my powder dry on this one and more will be heard soon.

I am inclined to agree with Smithldoo on most things, including the last two paragraphs quoted here, but on the continuing Paradox of the Second Cow, I think what I said was:

"Actually the 2nd cow was mentioned as a potential food source for a city, so it does have some utility in C4, but not nearly as much IMO as the resource system allows for multiple resources in AOM III."

So I'm not denying Bossie II has some value in Civ4, just not a lot.

Otherwise I must echo everything quoted, in an admittedly abbreviated manner, above.

[Solver]

Solver, have you played a game of AOM III? or any AOM to the end?

Not AoM III, no. I only played a full game of an early version, AOM I in fact.

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by smithldoo
Then when he got there, I suddenly remembered, I have to do 1 v 1 and thought to myself. What a load of absolute bull, 10 years on and this is all you can come up with. What total and utter crap IMHO.

Dale's Civ4 Stacked Combat Mod...
Stacked combat AND unique promotions that go beyond simple generic attack/defend numbers.

Looks like it is close to completion too.

...and before you go off on how terrible it is that combat had to be modded into civ4, remember that AOM is a Mod...

[Generaldoktor]

Er, yeah, but AOM cost me nothing, other than the money I spent six or so years ago for a CTP disc. (I probably should send Stan a donation though.) The "other product" was marketed as a professionally-produced product and my expectations; and many others', was justifiably much higher for it.

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by Generaldoktor
Er, yeah, but AOM cost me nothing, other than the money I spent six or so years ago for a CTP disc. (I probably should send Stan a donation though.) The "other product" was marketed as a professionally-produced product and my expectations; and many others', was justifiably much higher for it.

Which was my attitude when CTP2 came out.

(Sub in CTP2 for "other product" ...CTP2 was marketed as a professionally-produced product and my expectations; and many others', was justifiably much higher for it.)

So why is that different??? If the end result comes from a Modder, who cares? I wouldn't have spent 4 months on Cradle, and helped on AOM if CTP2 was OK.

Ohhh, I forgot...since it is civ, it is automatically open season from the AOM camp.

And last I checked, the civ4 combat mod is also free...

[Generaldoktor]

CTP did satisfy, at least me, when it first came out, though as has been said, it has aged. Civ 4 never has and these mods, rather than being just one amateur designer's fetish for his idea of more completeness, are really compensating for basic weaknesses evident in the core design from Minute One and offered then for a premium price.

Also, Civ4 is being played by thousands worldwide. I'd like to see AOM take off like that, as an admirer of Stan's work, but it doesn't appear at this point to be likely. If I mod my install of Civ, per Dale, I am making it incompatible with the Civ installed by anyone not familiar with Dale's mod or willing to use "unofficial" product and therefore, I cannot play them or even have a common reference point to discuss the game with them. Eliminating major weaknesses to the primary market through the primary design team is always preferable.

AOM is what it is, but, it took over from a design people had stopped playing and stored in their discarded/disregarded discs. When it did appear, there was only one version at any given time for anyone to play. The analogy between the two you make is not really comparable.

[Dale]

Originally posted by Generaldoktor
If I mod my install of Civ, per Dale, I am making it incompatible with the Civ installed by anyone not familiar with Dale's mod or willing to use "unofficial" product and therefore, I cannot play them or even have a common reference point to discuss the game with them.

That's bull**** at you know. My mod is just that. A mod. In its own directory, you have to specifically load it, and vanilla civ is not affected by it. Your civ is not out of whack, it becomes unriched with a new mod.

The analogy between the two you make is not really comparable.

As for that:
Er, yeah, but the Combat Mod cost me nothing, other than the money I spent a year ago for a CIV disc. (I probably should send Dale a donation though.) The "other product" was marketed as a professionally-produced product and my expectations; and many others', was justifiably much higher for it.

[Generaldoktor]

I don't know how I get drawn into these things.

Okay, my apologies for forgetting how mods are installed; I've only used about three of them over the years, including AOM; and yes, they are all on separate directories.

I played CTP to death and enjoyed it immensely. Now, for no cost, I am enjoying something new by retaining that CTP disc and dragging it up again. That's money in the bank to me.

I paid, I believe, $55 American, only last fall for Civ4. It has given me some pleasure, but at cost; maybe even permanent corruptions to essential parts of my computer. It is always a pain to run and has some quirky design features, as have been discussed here previously; the combat, which has always been a subject of justifiable criticism since Civ2 (and probably Civ1, which I've never seen,) is only the part of it. I expected more for last fall's expenditure, given the maturation of the series and computer games in general. Stan's mod to the old, formerly discarded product, was just icing on the cake, justifying further a long-ago purchase. To me that's not the same.

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by Generaldoktor ...and these mods, rather than being just one amateur designer's fetish for his idea of more completeness, are really compensating for basic weaknesses evident in the core design from Minute One and for a premium price.

Combat could be the only core area that may potentially bother me about civ4, but it is also not a game destroyer for me.

Which makes it a preference issue, not only for me, but for a lot of civ4 players.

I've already hashed this point out several time in the AOM forums - you can track it down if you want.

Originally posted by Generaldoktor Eliminating major weaknesses to the primary market through the primary design team is always preferable.

I'm not going to argue against the idea that a company is the better venue for fixing gameplay issues as the norm (they usually have the resources to pull it off more efficiently - at the same time, the fan community is VERY talented and knows the games inside and out)...but I find it hypocritical when the AOMers rightfully praise Stan for his work and then downplay other Modders for some of the great innovations they pull off in the civ4 community. Hence, Dale aims to fix a issue that the AOMers do nothing but b*tch and moan about, and they still will b*tch and moan like a broken record.

I heard it all the time in the civ2/civ3 camp, and I hear it in the AOM camp. What a crock of sh*t - and it is especially funny to hear the AOMer's b*tch and moan about the elitist attitudes of civvers toward the CTP series and they end up doing the same type of sh*t themselves.

Look at it this way...you have a civ4 combat model that potentially will outstrip CTP's model because it offers combined arms stacked combat, as well as a choice-oriented promotion system that is not in AOM.

I look at that and say, ''great!!!''. It's another improvement to a game and the genre that I like.

It's the end result that matters. How one gets there is not important...

Originally posted by Generaldoktor When it did appear, there was only one version at any given time for anyone to play. The analogy between the two you make is not really comparable.

My point is that I am interested in a good game, and do not care if it has to be modded to get to that point. Since I solely play single-play, compatibility is a non-issue for me.

Dale's combat mod has a bearing on some combat issues, but has no bearing on a host of other general strat issues, so this should not shut off strategy discussion.

Originally posted by Generaldoktor
If I mod my install of Civ, per Dale, I am making it incompatible with the Civ installed by anyone not familiar with Dale's mod or willing to use "unofficial" product and therefore, I cannot play them or even have a common reference point to discuss the game with them.

Do a dual install then...

[Generaldoktor]

I'll probably try Dale's mod. "Donation" will be dependent on my degree of enthusiasm.

I've said it before, but this is really supposed to be a thread about AOM III, not Civ mods, Civ vs. AOM and all this other stuff. However, I didn't start the thread and I'm not a Poly monitor, so I'm not going to get all "militant" about it. I am going back to playing, either one or the other, or the third; and will leave the controversy to those who thrive on it.

[Solver]

If I mod my install of Civ, per Dale, I am making it incompatible with the Civ installed by anyone not familiar with Dale's mod or willing to use "unofficial" product and therefore, I cannot play them or even have a common reference point to discuss the game with them.

That's a funny point, given both Dale's response above and the fact that, for the last 5 years, pretty much everyone playing CtP2 has been playing mods - and, moreover, different mods. With a small community of players, some playing Cradle, others Apolyton Pack and others MedMod, that's where you lose common reference points...

[Dale]

Generaldoktor:

Eliminating major weaknesses to the primary market through the primary design team is always preferable.

I did most of the design of the Desert War scenario. Technically this puts me on the primary design team. So think of my mod as actually coming from the primary design team.

You know, I wish I could show you some of the conversations between 2 or 3 of us (pro CTP-styled stack combat) and the rest of the Civ4 team about combat. In fact, I'm still on about combat over at Firaxis HQ. But if I did, I'd have to kill you after. But at least you'd get some perspective behind the decision to go with what we've got.

Dale

[Generaldoktor]

Originally posted by Solver

If I mod my install of Civ, per Dale, I am making it incompatible with the Civ installed by anyone not familiar with Dale's mod or willing to use "unofficial" product and therefore, I cannot play them or even have a common reference point to discuss the game with them.

That's a funny point, given both Dale's response above and the fact that, for the last 5 years, pretty much everyone playing CtP2 has been playing mods - and, moreover, different mods. With a small community of players, some playing Cradle, others Apolyton Pack and others MedMod, that's where you lose common reference points...

I've already answered this; I'm not a computer wonk, I wasn't with Poly before last year so knew nothing of these other mods. (I preferred back then to play, rather than chatter and bicker, I wonder what happened? ) I forgot mods create their own separate directories. I said in the last post, I'd try Dale's mod. 'Nuff said!

[Ekmek]

AoMites

someone is having problems with AoM2 could you help him out?

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=4490703#post4490703

[smithldoo]

Not AoM III, no. I only played a full game of an early version, AOM I in fact.

by solver.

Take my word for it, AOM III is nearly as different to play, as AOM I was to cradle, because of the diplomacy changes. If you read Angrybowen's Science victory thread, you will see that he depended on the goodwill of 2 not so aggressive neighbours to be able to keep his military down and focus on science.

Re Civ 4 combat (1 v 1), as far as I can see, Civ4 and Ctp2 are in the same boat. Combat (1 v 1) IMHO is crap because you cannot do the most SIMPLE, BASIC thing in Civ 4 that every commander tried to do in history, deploy a numerical advantage of any kind. 8 months now and we are still waiting for a patch to change this and it won't be a Firaxis one Civ4==Ctp2.

Promotions. I played another game with this type of system because to me it is artificial, unit x has advantage over unit y, y >z, z
The sytem might be fair enough if you immediately got a bonus say, if you defeated cavalry, you got a bonus against cavalry. But the bonus can often be unrelated to the combat in any way, AND Dale's idea of not selecting your promotion until you need to completes the total absurdity

Trade. Again a very major concept and why has it been cut up into so many little bits, seems just to make more decisions. BTW I do not subscribe to the theory that more decisions=more strategy. More decisions when less will do == tedium and micro management IMHO (that should be obvious to most). Stan detailed at the AOM forum where even the relatively primitive ancient Britons traded with Rome 100+ years before Caesar crossed the English Channel and the ancient chinese and etruscans had specific wine transporting containers as early as 1300 BC and 700BC. Yet you cannot trade wine in Civ 4 till monarchy.

More decisions for the sake of more decisions + totally distort history == total bullsh**T game IMHO (remember Dale did say it was a game of history).