My CIV4 Challenge to Everybody: Beat Ages of Man First!

[Addled Platypus]

despite the ease it seems to install

it just cant get to ?, I am taking a break before trying again

wish I was there....

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by Sava
well, I'm not going to write an essay, describing CTP2's suckage would take an essay, not just a single post

I don't expect from you an whole essay, just one reason. And indeed you can find numerous issures in the version you find in the box.

Originally posted by Sava
it had some good ideas, but they were implemented poorly

I might rephrase it a little bit, overall CTP2 feels like an unfinished product, and in fact it is, you just need to look into the list of changes/fixes of the CTP2 source code project. So you have a valid point at least for the version out of the box.

Originally posted by Sava
but hey, if you enjoy it, why should our opinions matter?

If it is based on experience or facts then I can accept your opinion, but if it is only based on prejudices, something like: "CTP2 sucks!" Why does it suck? "Ehm, I never have played, but it sucks anyway, because ehm it sucks."

That's an opion I cannot accept as real opinion. This is something that is not considered well. Or just the opinion of someone else. And by the way with the release of the CTP2 source code we can fix it, given we have the time to do it and we are willing to do it. Afterwards I moved some 250 engineers each turn on the map just to improveme my terrain in Civ2, removing PW is no option for.

And thank you for your reply Sava, so now it is up to you, conmcb25: Why does CTP2 suck? Of course come up with something else than Sava.

Originally posted by Freddz
I would advise you not to get the xplosiv version of CTPII, I hear it has some problems running with Age of man.

And for this problem see this thread.

-Martin

[Ekmek]

yeah i'd actually like to hear why people think ctp2 sucks. perhaps those of that atempt fixing the code miss something. we arent working to please you but to make a better game so your opinions do count.

[hexagonian]

Fot the 'CTP sucks' trolls, as it relates to CTP...

CTP sucks.

For the 'CTP sucks' trolls, as it relates to AOM...

You are all lazy, short-sighted because you lack the ability to long-range plan, and scared of having your a** handed to you.

You know who you are...

[Ninot]

Originally posted by hexagonian
You know who you are...

I swear, im trying to get a game in, but i never have time to sit down and think about it long enough to plan and stuff.

[Jonah5]

I sold my CTP2 on ebay about the time AoM came out so.....but it sounds great

[Atahualpa]

Originally posted by Martin G�hmann
So guys, if you say that CTP2 suck, you have to tell me why it sucks.

So guys why does CTP2 suck?

I am sorry but I read this to often and often enough I just found someone without any idea.

-Martin

I can provide you with several reasons... The foremost and strongest reason is it's UI.

E.g. A city builds a unit, the unit is selected over the city. I fortify it and deselect it. The unit disappears. Ok, but now when I select the city again, not the city is selected but the unit. This is stupid and makes me want to roar because I need to find the city tab and click on it, to see what the city produces. So what does CtP2 does wrong: The same action (left-clicking on a city) results in different information. Correct would be that the same action always results in the same information. Everything else is frustrating.

Another example: I am in the city build queue manager. I want to build a unit and I think.... hmmm what units do I have in this city? I look around and around I cannot find it. So I have to click on City manager and then on the units tab, just to check and after I close it, the information is lost again and hopefully I remembered it!! So we can say: If you have to make y clicks and wait x time to get information needed to make a descision, you get dissatisifed sooner than when you get all the information right away.

Next thing: The empire manager is totally useless and micro to fiddle around with the settings. Normally I guess you'd want it that way that happiness is such that your cities just do not revolt and you either prefer if you lower their rations, wages or increase their working time depending on what you want to focus. IMO, the empire manager needs to be replaced by an advisor that you give one of the 3 preferences: expand/grow, produce, economy/research and the advisor decides on his own how to distribute rations, wages and working hours.
I visit that screen in the beginning, set everything to as low as possible and only come back when a city is revolting. Pointless. Choices that are not fun (not give me something positive) are bad. Making my citizen happy is only fun when I get something positive out of it and when I _immediately_ can see this effect. (e.g. in civ3 when you adjust the science/tax rate, you can see how much faster you can research the next advance). Ofc on top of that, mostly deterministic descisions should be automated more.

Another one is that when you select the units tab in a city you just get presented by one unit and you have to click on that small arrow to see all of them. Why not see all of them right away? The question is, what do you want to achieve when click on the unit tab and the answer (for me) is seeing all present units.

You don't see on the main map which city is producing what and how many turns it needs to finish it.

There is no sound/animation when you fortify a unit... all unit actions should provide at least a visual OR accustic feedback.

I don't like the message system at all, but cannot say why.

I tried for a few turns and was reminded why one cannot seriously play the game. Even if the mechanics behind it are great, the interface is such a horror i don't want to touch it.

The sharp transitions on the main map between black, fow and visible are another thing that hurts my eyes. Civ3 has smoother transitions which are way more pleasent.

And don't get me started about all the managers. They are crap. E.g. I think I can check what each city builds in the national manager or something like that. But there I don't see where the city is placed on the map and this information IS important to what the city is producing.

Sure, if you can remember all these things, you got no problem. But there is no place in my brain to remember stupid stuff such as what city is where and what does it build and how many and which units are fortified.
I play civilization that way that I always make descisions based on the information I get on the screen and only a limited amount of information from my memory (mostly general abstract strategy information). This is why the CtP series is totally unsuitable for me (and for a lot of people as well).
If you want to make CtP playable for me, you have to present me all information that I need for a given set of actions in one single screen. The more (details) I have to fetch from my brain the less I can enjoy it.

If you really want to improve the playability of CtP for everyone you have to identify for each view of the game (main map, city,...) what are the most common actions people do and then you have to present all the information that is necessary to complete the action in that screen. The less people have to look up or remember the more you can actually play and enjoy. This surely is a major reason for "why CtP2 sucks".

[yin26]

Even if the mechanics behind it are great, the interface is such a horror i don't want to touch it.

You have many valid points about the interface, thank you. But my challenge remains: if you have the time and willingness, try to actually beat the AOM AI at the programmer's recommended settings. Don't approach this particularly as a "fun" thing but as a "research" thing. Because what I think you'll find as you progress in your research (which will become fun, I'm almost certain) is that you'll come across many great ideas that we can and should bring in to Civ 4. This is the point, IMO.

But if your threshold on UI is so high that you don't want the intellectual challenge of the game mechanics, that's fair enough. Too bad, though, because you are able to express yourself clearly, and it would be great to hear your thoughts on what it takes strategy wise to beat the latest build of AOM.

[Atahualpa]

I also forgot to mention that you not only need to present all the information you need to make a descisions that result in an action, but also that you JUST need all the information you need.

This is the really hard part, because ofc you could pack everything on one screen and then let the user get frustrated.

Yin, UI is that important, something that you cannot control, you cannot control. But I want to wish luck to everybody else who tries the mod and this amount of work just _has to be_ (at least) tried.

[Drakan]

Atahualpa, as much as I hate to admit it, she's right -again-.

AoM does a complete overhaul of CtP2. You really ought to give it a try.

If you love TBS games, you'll be missing out -at least until Civ IV is released-. I also hope many of AoMs features are "borrowed" in Civ IV.

Regarding your points they're ok but wouldn´t stop me from playing CtP2.

The main issue with CtP2 and why "it sucked" was that the AI was a complete push-over even in the hardest level of game-play. You just couldn't lose and that removed all the excitement.

Just compare a C3C Sid game with the most difficult setting in CtP2, you just couldn't lose in CtP2 !!

Whereas in C3C it takes an awful lot of hard work and planning to pull off the game.

Albeit in AoM Stankarp has improved the AI light years. It´s really hard to beat and quite frustrating out of the sheer difficulty to which one was accustomed in CtP2. It really does pose you a challenge. Can you stand up to it ?

[hexagonian]

I fired up a SMAC game last night...

...and was immediately frustrated by an interface that really makes you search for info. For instance, when I am looking for a spot to settle, there is no easy way to determine what each tile will produce. Click on the tile and you get the type, but not the base value...

When an item is complete, the cityscreen automatically comes up and blocks the map out, So I have no easy way to see the city in relation to the rest of the map so I can decide what needs to be built. A front line city may have a different priority than a city tucked in the interior. A frontier city might make a better choice to build a colony pod, saving me movement...but I have to close the screen, see the map, and then reopen the screen. If I choose to turn off the message, I have no reminder that the city may need attention.

Units that are autopathed do not have any clear indication if they are autopathed after you send them on their way.

I could go on and on...and I could point out the areas of civ3 that also frustrate me in regards to the UI.

Why do I bring this up?

I know it's a preference issue, but suprisingly, I can adjust to the quirks. Mentally, I do not compare the UIs of the games, to the point that I will not play it, but I deal with it. And every game is different, with a different UI, so there isn't a perfect UI.

I'm enjoying the game anyhow. I can muddle through the interface, as much as I hate it, for the sake of a game that is interesting (and for me, challenging, as I rarely played it when I got it).

[Locutus]

Ah yes, if I would write down all my criticisms of the Civ3 interface it likely wouldn't fit in one post... And that's just the interface, the rest of the game is an abomination as well...

We can only hope that Civ4 will do with the UI what it did with the gameplay: take the best of every civ game out there and combine it in one product. So far it's looking promising (we already saw screens that looked suspiciously like CtP2's National Manager and Unit Manager), but from what we know the UI is still very much in flux.

[Atahualpa]

I'd like to hear your civ3 interface critics... UI design is a topic I enjoy (I also took a course on it once).

[Atahualpa]

Originally posted by Drakan
Atahualpa, as much as I hate to admit it, she's right -again-.

AoM does a complete overhaul of CtP2. You really ought to give it a try.

If you love TBS games, you'll be missing out -at least until Civ IV is released-. I also hope many of AoMs features are "borrowed" in Civ IV.

Regarding your points they're ok but wouldn´t stop me from playing CtP2.

The main issue with CtP2 and why "it sucked" was that the AI was a complete push-over even in the hardest level of game-play. You just couldn't lose and that removed all the excitement.

Just compare a C3C Sid game with the most difficult setting in CtP2, you just couldn't lose in CtP2 !!

Whereas in C3C it takes an awful lot of hard work and planning to pull off the game.

Albeit in AoM Stankarp has improved the AI light years. It´s really hard to beat and quite frustrating out of the sheer difficulty to which one was accustomed in CtP2. It really does pose you a challenge. Can you stand up to it ?

My problem is not the AI, I don't really get to the point in CtP2 where the AI is a problem.

Btw, Málaga...

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Atahualpa
I'd like to hear your civ3 interface critics... UI design is a topic I enjoy (I also took a course on it once).

If I had time for that I would rather spend it updating the civ4 info section

But I think hex wrote a few good posts on it over the years, Google is your friend