design versus coding

[Velociryx]

Yeah, I'm finding that I'm slowly being drawn more and more into the coders' realm....when we first started, I didn't even understand the lingo....still don't know all the finer points, but at least I can listen in on a conversation about it and not feel completely lost!

As to the game....well, 's true that the closeness to it might give me a leg up, but....I dunno....we got some crafty people workin' on this thing....

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

morning again guys! And not to worry....it's discussions like these that keep us grounded. It's all too easy, when focusing in on the game itself, or hearing nothing but good things, to conveniently forget the fact that there are some real landmines out there....and those of you who remind us OF those pitfalls are valuable indeed. We NEED that sort of reminder now and again....that's so important, because without it, we may veer too far off course and crash the whole project simply by not paying attention. So, I really DO rely on these discussions to keep a portion of my attention on what could go wrong. Maybe that won't be enough to save us in the end, if something really major does go wrong, but I'd rather have a bit of advance warning in any case...

As far as our eventually splitting of that pie when it comes to that, we had a huge powwow about that early on, and decided that there was no way of reliably estimating just who would be able to contribute exactly what to the project, so, we're relying on the team leads (Me, Ram, and Cathy) to keep track of the people in their respective areas to determine who's doing what, how much time is involved in that (in terms of both total hours and overall importance to the game itself), and we'll make our equity decisions based on that....but of course, that's something we can't accurately determine till we cross the finish line.

And where my own stubborness is concerned....I can say that, yes. If it came to that....if the project fell apart for some reason, and everybody went their own separate ways....in order to see it to completion, I'd learn to program, master Bryce, and try to do it all myself. I don't think the end result would be nearly as good as it'll be this way, but I would stubbornly try....

-=Vel=-

[TCO]

Originally posted by Velociryx


As far as our eventually splitting of that pie when it comes to that, we had a huge powwow about that early on, and decided that there was no way of reliably estimating just who would be able to contribute exactly what to the project, so, we're relying on the team leads (Me, Ram, and Cathy) to keep track of the people in their respective areas to determine who's doing what, how much time is involved in that (in terms of both total hours and overall importance to the game itself), and we'll make our equity decisions based on that....but of course, that's something we can't accurately determine till we cross the finish line.

Wrong answer. Go back and rethink this.

And where my own stubborness is concerned....I can say that, yes. If it came to that....if the project fell apart for some reason, and everybody went their own separate ways....in order to see it to completion, I'd learn to program, master Bryce, and try to do it all myself. I don't think the end result would be nearly as good as it'll be this way, but I would stubbornly try....

-=Vel=-

Right answer.

[Velociryx]

Not really sure there IS another answer to the first part of the equation tho, GP....we can't base those kinds of decisions on estimates....it's gotta be based on actual goods produced, but we won't have the answer to that part till we get something produced. It's an imperfect solution, to be sure, but the only one that is fair to all parties involved. One thing is sure tho....if and when we reach that point, I intend to see to it that everybody who helps get us there is well taken care of.

-=Vel=-
(back in an hour....domestic duties call....sigh - laundry and house cleaning SUCK!)

[TCO]

Vel, do you at least have a contract between the 3 team leaders regarding ownership? How close and how committeda re you guys. Ever work together on something else? What do you do if one team leader gets tired of the project?

I ask because I saw a friend of mine have a 3 man LLC go down the tubes...because they didn't think through these issues.

[xRamsesx]

GP, it seems to me that you're asking a lot of questions about our buisiness practices and implementation rather than the game concept and ideas which is what this forum is supposed to be about. How we do things I think should really be something that we as a group privately decide on. We've been working together for 4 months now and have come to an understanding on how we'll be doing things privately amongst ourselves.

Are you interested in investing in our little venture? If so then I'm sure Vel and our buisiness development people can talk to you in some more detail to see if you'd be interested or not.

Or are you thinking of joining the group? If you are why don't you tell us in what way you could help us (code/art/writing/testing) and maybe we can find the perfect niche in our group to welcome you in.

[moomin]

Originally posted by GP
Vel, do you at least have a contract between the 3 team leaders regarding ownership? How close and how committeda re you guys. Ever work together on something else? What do you do if one team leader gets tired of the project?

GP, you realize these are intimate questions to ask, don't you? I woldn't be comfortable discussing stuff like this on the web board - beyond, perhaps, "We've dealt with that" or "I'll think 'bout it some more".

Furthermore, I can't but say I find your reply above needlessly aggressive. I agree with you in fact - I too believe Vel and his men would be well advised to sit down and work out a deal right now - but there is a slim possibility that the interpersonal dynamics of this particular group will carry it thru' anyway. You're approch to this whole discussion makes me feel as if I'm the good cop in a "good cop - bad cop" excercise and I can't say I particularly enjoy it. Neither, I'm sure, does Vel, although the man is far to polite to say so.

Which is a darn shame, because I happen to think you make good sense.

I ask because I saw a friend of mine have a 3 man LLC go down the tubes...because they didn't think through these issues.

I was in an 4 man start-up a couple of years ago, and we went through some _amazing_ pains (which ultimately included kicking one guy out and paying some serious cash for the priviledge) becuase we didn't do our contract homework up front like smart people. It worked out all right though, since it was in the years of flowing milk and honey so we got some investors to foot the bill and made out jolly good in the end. Vel does not have that luxury in the current market, so I'll just say that I agree entirely with you - Vel, you should too think more 'bout this now.

If I may be so bold as to suggest an outline of a contract that tries to define the shares when effort and work to reach them is uncertain, I'd like to mention the one I have with my current company; we each have guaranteed shares and a common share that we'll divide up among us when the work is done according to some easy to measure, written in stone criteria. And let me tell you I sleep a lot easier by night knowing it too. Of course, all of us having experience in our particular field and a rough common feeling for what's actually reasonable helped no end here, and you'll find this a lot harder with your crew, I'm sure.

But not even close to as hard as it will be, I think, a year from now.

[Velociryx]

Back from a break in the whole cleaning exercise (sigh...I really wish I could train my cats to cover stuff like laundry and garbage....ah well....*G*)!

Good points here, all 'round. GP and Moominparatrooper have collectively raised an issue that can indeed become a showstopper if it's not handled with care.

I think though, that part of handling it with care....part of handling it responsibly, is to make it transparent to the gamer. While it's true that I am striving to make our company and our effort here incredibly accessible and responsive to any and all who are interested in kicking ideas around the public forum, I must agree with Ramses that there are some issues which are better suited to that public debate than others. This is probably not one of them.

Nonetheless, if the interest in the nuts and bolts of the operation stem from a desire to invest or sign on, shoot me an e-mail and we can delve more deeply into those topics.

As it is, I can say that the current bent of the discussion has been fully digested, and my brain is currently chewing on it and comparing it to what we've currently got in place, to see if there's an improvement or change needed, and I will continue to rely on you guys to keep me on my toes!

-=Vel=-

[moomin]

Originally posted by xRamsesx
GP, it seems to me that you're asking a lot of questions about our buisiness practices and implementation rather than the game concept and ideas which is what this forum is supposed to be about. How we do things I think should really be something that we as a group privately decide on. We've been working together for 4 months now and have come to an understanding on how we'll be doing things privately amongst ourselves.

Ramses, I didn't know, nor did GP, I believe, that this forum was intended only for discussion of CB the game. Since you're trying something new and interesting here with your highly unorthodox developement model - which, if I may say so, has featured prominently in the discussions about this game, many of which were initiated by you guys, I certainly thought musing on this subject were cool. While I agree that some of the questions here have been more intrusive than necessary merited, you can always say no, no?

If you feel you don't need or want any kind of talk here about this I'll be happy to curtail my interest to the game machanics - I've already discussed some of that with Vel and it is, after all the soul of your effort. Still, you're doing a new and interesting thing with the way you organize as well, and unless you tell us to mind our own business I, for one, will certainly continue to bug you about it.

[Velociryx]

One of the hallmarks of our efforts to date has been the spirit of openness and (often rampant, which is a very good thing!) creativity that gets generated any time you put a number of passionate, creative people in a room, be it a real room or a virtual one.

It's true that, as this forum matures and gets more fully fleshed out, the vast majority of the stuff posted here will be game mechanics oriented, and open discussions on new ideas or how to integrate various pieces of the puzzle together to make a cohesive whole.

These forums here at 'poly are our primary means reaching out to, and talking with fans of the game and those interested in the project. Since we really are taking a dramatically different approach to design and implementation, there's bound to be a certain curiosity about the particulars, and that's okay too....after all, they really are interwoven to the point that it is sometimes difficult to tell where one stops and the other starts. Having said that, I think that pretty much any question or concern is "fair game" to be raised here, so long as it's understood that we might, from time to time, feel the need to offer up a "no comment" about something if it strays onto a topic that's just not particularly well suited to public debate.

And don't worry, "no comment" isn't about to become our mantra!

-=Vel=-

[TCO]

vel, ram (and moonie),

1. I bear you NO ill will nor am I out to steal anything or sabotoge it. I wish Velocigames the best in your efforts.

2. I find the organizational/business aspects interesting...and I have some pretty good intuitions here.

3. I wasn't seriously pushing to be a part of the team...but maybe we could work something out in terms of consulting. Basically I've been giving you some "hard to hear but important to hear" consulting advice.

[Chowlett]

And I think we all needed that reality check - thanks for it.

I can safely say that the discussions over on the other forums are looking exceptionally groovy, and that this is looking to be an exceptionally groovy game (and part of thanks, and my curses [I should be revising] for getting me back into this goes to GP and the other folks discussing here at 'poly).

I'm in agreement here with most of what has been said - I see the need for a contract - not for myself, I expect nothing from this project as I'm having a great time and doing really very litle towards it's advancement so far - I'm awaiting testing. But also we need to figure this out ourselves - consultancy is fine, but the exact details need to be our own, and in all probability should not be divulged to the general public.

But yeah - keep at it GP. In Cambridge there's a place known as "reality checkpoint" among the students. It's a lampost in the middle of a park. To the North lies Cambridge, the University town. To the South lies Cambridge, the outside world. I think there's a similar point in this case, and it lies halfway between www.pyromaniaks.net/candlebre and apolyton.net/forums

[TCO]

project management

Have you guys thought through how long this will take you?. That is how many man hours (an estimate based on the scope)? And how many man hours you have available from volunteers?

When will you be done? What are the major milestones and when will you be there for each?

[Velociryx]

Total agreement from me!

And never once did it cross my mind that anybody involved with us or talking about the various aspects of what we're doing is out to sabatoge or steal from us....that has never entered into my thinking (for a number of different reasons, actually).

What I see here though, is a group of people who started out as strangers....who came together around an idea....poured themselves into it to make it their own....really leave their mark on it and in it, and somewhere along the way, became friends to boot!

Now that, coupled with the sharp eyes we have both actively involved in the project, and from those who are interested and watching....taken together that gives us a powerful advantage. It is my opinion that if we heed the wise words of advice offered freely by the folks participating in our discussion, we'll go a long way in avoiding many of the more common pitfalls that spell the end of efforts like ours, and maybe even safeguard ourselves against some of the less common ones. That's pretty valuable protection, and I think it is a credit to our sheer openness that we can rely on that sort of thing. I wouldn't change that for the world.

So yes! By all means, keep at it! Just because something might not be easy to hear, doesn't mean its a bad thing to hear....keep at it and we'll do our level best to stay on the straight and narrow path to see this thing through to completion...

-=Vel=-

[Skanky Burns]

It can't hurt my chances that half the coding team belong to the Skanky Mafia.... nor the fact that I'm writing the combat engine...

"Oh look, my single infantry just defeated your army of archers, cavalry and pikemen.... again... Must be luck"