Map Graphics Thread part III

[xxjiggawhoxx]

Howdy

I'm new and I'm offering to do some graphics for this game. The first thing I noticed when Mark sent me some of the files was that you people need to ORGANIZE!!! The forty-some bizillion files for the different tiles is way too much! And the Units should all be on one file. I mean the number of tiles is great, but they need to all be in one large file with some sort of key like Civ2 has. I read some of you talking about this earlier but I'm hungry right now so I just skimmed it.

I usually make cities or terrain improvement icons, so whatever you people need I could experiment on. Just email me a list or write it on here and I'll check back later.

Ok last thing: The way they organize files in Freeciv is the same as Civ2, and they use a grid system which if you mess with graphics on that game at all you already know how to alter it. Heres the tag on a settler 0, 0, "u.settlers" its in the row 0 and column 0 and its identified in the rulespec as 'u.settlers,' which specifies its defense, attack, move, etc.. Thats how it should be done, in my opinion, but I'm not really a part of this game yet, so I'm just throwing you the idea.

So ok, if you want about ten or so things made in the next few weeks I could do that, but I don't have much spare time..

[vovan]

Hi there J. (Hope you don't mind me abbreviating your name like that. )

I was looking at the image files and thinking that exact same thing. They need to be sorted out. However, I myself am not quite sure how easy it would be to put all the similar images into one file - i.e. all tiles in one file, all cities in one file, unit graphics, and such. That is the way it is done in most of the strategy games. (In all TBS's I know of, as a matter of fact.) But that needs to be discussed among the programmers. (I really don't mean to sound elitist or anything.)

The problem here is this: the games, like Civ3, SMAC, and such, in which all the similar graphics are collected in one file in the form of a table, are written in C++. And graphics files for it already include the functionality to cut out "subimages" out of big images. So, you could simply say: take image "tiles.pcx", cut out of it the rectangle (0,0,64,32) (for instance) and plug that into my variable imgDesertTile. (Where you get the coordinates from, say the settings file, as you described.) Thus, such things are very easily implemented in C++. But, I don't know if such functionality exists in any Java packages. And I am fairly confident that we would not be able to wirte that functionality had we been forced to. (OK, I will speak for myself - I would not be able to implement that.) But if somebody knows that there is such a package and is ready to devote some time to rewriting the graphics "engine" (which will probably need to be done eventually any way), they are more than welcome to.

But if not, it would still be nice to organise the images by at least putting them into different subfolders of the images folder - such as tiles, units, etc..

[vovan]

I've done some quick searching of the Java API, and I think I found some classes to read the pieces of an image:

http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.1/docs/api/javax/imageio/ImageReader.html#readTile(int, int, int)

In general, it seems that the javax.imageio package seems to be it.

[Richard Bruns]

I like having all the files seperate. That way they are much more portable and the game is not limited to a fixed number of graphics. The Civ2 graphics editing was quite inflexible, and the system of seperate files for each graphic is IMO much better. I certainly wouldn´t want anyone to waste coding time to change to a less flexible system.

However, I agree that different types of pictures could be in different folders. Splitting the images into terrain, units, and misc folders would be nice.

[LDiCesare]

I also want the files to be separate. At least for units. Variants of a terain, I could understand to have them in a file, but I don't really like it.
I am pretty sure it is possible to do some image clipping with java API.

Here are the downsides with single file image for units, those I encountered when modding civ2, not my own programmer bias:
Finding the correct coordinates in the grid is tirign for the mouse.
Moving one unit from one place to another requires a buffer and is difficult for me.
Merging 2 or 3 files is extremely painful.
There is a limit on the number of units available (easily fixed since we don't have to have a fixed size for the image).
Screwing one file screws all the units.

With the system you suggest, you have to tie the image name to a coordinate, which means additional trouble as you have to be able to count, from zero, the number of units in the image.

I agree that we could make use of subdirectories, for units, land, etc.

[Mark_Everson]

Re: Howdy

Hi xxjiggawhoxx, I officially welcome you to our humble project!

Originally posted by xxjiggawhoxx
I'm new and I'm offering to do some graphics for this game. The first thing I noticed when Mark sent me some of the files was that you people need to ORGANIZE!!! The forty-some bizillion files for the different tiles is way too much! And the Units should all be on one file. I mean the number of tiles is great, but they need to all be in one large file with some sort of key like Civ2 has. I read some of you talking about this earlier but I'm hungry right now so I just skimmed it.

Sounds like the concensus for now is to put a package structure for the files, but leave the separate images. I think that is best short-term in any case since we don't want to make wrenching changes in the graphics handling at this point with so many other things going on.

Hope that works for you and everyone else!

I usually make cities or terrain improvement icons, so whatever you people need I could experiment on. Just email me a list or write it on here and I'll check back later.

So ok, if you want about ten or so things made in the next few weeks I could do that, but I don't have much spare time..

There are already like 4 requests in the unit graphics thread if you're interested. I think that would be the most valuable thing at the moment. Different city images for different stages in the game could certainly be useful in the near-term also. Looking forward to seeing what you can do!

[xxjiggawhoxx]

I like having all the files seperate. That way they are much more portable and the game is not limited to a fixed number of graphics. The Civ2 graphics editing was quite inflexible, and the system of seperate files for each graphic is IMO much better. I certainly wouldn´t want anyone to waste coding time to change to a less flexible system.

It seemed a bunch easier to me, but I'm unfamiliar with this whole seperate tile thing.

Finding the correct coordinates in the grid is tirign for the mouse.
Moving one unit from one place to another requires a buffer and is difficult for me.
Merging 2 or 3 files is extremely painful.There is a limit on the number of units available (easily fixed since we don't have to have a fixed size for the image).
Screwing one file screws all the units.

I don't understand the first one...
I wouldn't know about that, but isnt there a buffer for what you have now?
Oh since it takes about three hours and you only have to do it once, instead of coding more and more for each new tile? With the freeciv type filesystem, you just edit two files and you can add as many as you want.
I guess, if you know nothing about editing picture files...

With the system you suggest, you have to tie the image name to a coordinate, which means additional trouble as you have to be able to count, from zero, the number of units in the image.

..Zero is such a big number

Ok, well I was just expressing my opinion. Anyway I'm in the process of making a site, so I'll post my progress on there and link it here I guess.. Ok my site is now http://www.angelfire.com/empire2/xxxjiggawhoxxx

When I finish it I should have 70 cities.. The styles are Southern European, Russian/Northern Euro, Arab, African, Chineese, Japaneese/Outlying islands. This is for the Ancient Era. The Rennisance I was going to make three types. Africa/Arab, Euro, Jap/Chineese. Then Industrial Era, Computer Age, Future (like the Diamond Age in CTP2), Underwater. If you don't use all (or any) of these it won't break my heart. I think they look pretty good so far, I am almost finished with the Southern European style. Alrighty have fun making graphics.... Oh and are we going to make terrain improvements in the future or not? I don't mean like irrigation, I mean like ports, oil rigs, radar etc... Oh my name is Tyler, btw, so you can call me that or jackass or you know whatever fits.

[LDiCesare]

I wouldn't know about that, but isnt there a buffer for what you have now?
Oh since it takes about three hours and you only have to do it once, instead of coding more and more for each new tile? With the freeciv type filesystem, you just edit two files and you can add as many as you want.
I guess, if you know nothing about editing picture files...

I mean when I edit civ2 units files, I copy paste a lot, which means I need to clip, and that is not easy for me to clip correctly the units. I find it extremely painful.
Adding an image in either system goes this way:
Civ2: Edit units.gif, edit the rules.txt so the unit is in the rigjt place.
Freeciv: Edit the units file. Edit the units so they reference the right coordinates.
Clash: Edit a brand new image. To me the fact that I don't have to put it in an existing frame is a plus. Edit the images.xml or scenario file to give the image a name, and link all units to that name. You can then change unit images by editing the images.xml file.

I am a drawer, not a computer one, but I know how to make a drawing, and I know that it is far better for me to start from a blank sheet than a cluttered one. I would have to copy paste my picture into an existing file, which is painful for me. Adding a directory structure to the images however, makes things simpler.

[xxjiggawhoxx]

Yeah, yeah I guess...

[xxjiggawhoxx]

Heres some mountains I made sometime between 10-4. I don't know if theyre the right size for the tiles, but if the graphics engine sets mountains ontop of a tile and then lets them overlap, I think it'll work... I dunno I was just bored and I think I have insomnia. Need sleep. Download it if youre interested in new stuff. Its a ton better than the mountain thats already in the game.... Night night

Lalala its now 5:20 the new file will be on my next post...

[Mark_Everson]

Hi Tyler, the mountains look pretty cool! Why would they need to be overlays? They fill the entire tile pretty much.

IMO we need tiles that have less vertical element to them, since the ones you have will tend to cover much of any neighboring tile. Maybe a compromize between the sort of height you have in the sample mountains and what is in there now would work.

[xxjiggawhoxx]

Hmm I didnt think about it covering up other tiles... I forgot that they'll cover up units and tiles behind it... I can shrink 'um I guess. I'll do it later though.

Anyway here are the new mountains. I made 5 or 6 more for the snow/tundra type terrain. (Is the object of this game to get it to look as real as possible or what?.. I usually hate the fake looking graphics on some games, but they need to look a bit cartoonish I think.) Btw, anytime I make graphics I'm gonna bunch them up by terrain type, and if they're to be used then I'll go through the trouble of seperating them. Ok, it's really, really, really late now and I should go to sleep. (or is it early?)

[xxjiggawhoxx]

Okies I redid the mountains like Mark said. I didn't resize them to make them shorter, however I alligned them to where the top of the mountain was in the top corner of the tile, so there should be some overlapping, but not much. This is as much as I'm gonna do with mountains for now, cuz I'm really sick of looking at them. Heres the new download.

(Is there a way to attach it and put the image on the post or not?)

[Martin the Dane]

(Is there a way to attach it and put the image on the post or not?)

Yes Tyler, just attach it as .gif, .jpg, or .png

Forgot to mention: nice mountains, I like 'em

[xxjiggawhoxx]

Hey guys, I'm back from my extended vacation of school (also couldn't remember what my password was), and now I'm on summer vacation , so I can draw some more. I'll probably start by doing all the tiles in the style I had started a long time ago. I had all the pictures somewhere, so I'll go ahead and do that, and even if you don't use it for the game they still work for Civ2 or Freeciv, so they're basically for me. I skimmed over what you all were writing, and it seems like you're busy with resources, so I'll help with that if you need. I think what would be even better once the game is completed is if all the artists that worked on it made their own tilesets and graphics. More variety = more fun! Anyway I've got to go apply for a job so I'll see y'all later.