KILL MONTY - 3 vs 2 - Any takers?

[mmontgomery]

As I said in in early post, I would like to propose a team game with the purpose of killing me. We have a 2 vs 1 put together, but I would also like to get a 3 vs 2 game together. There are some slight changes from my first proposal for a 3 vs. 2 game. In particular, my opponents can decide whether we play with pods or not, and my opponents can play Morgan if they want.

For the 3 vs. 2 game. I would take a single partner. Both Marky and Wdplays have volunteered for the job. For each team, the teammates would start the game with each others comm frequency and could Pact and trade technology from turn 1 if they wanted.

As for factions, no one can take either alien faction or Pirates. The 3 player team cannot pick from University or Cycon, but could pick any other three factions they wanted. 1 faction of the two player team would have the same restrictions. So 1 player of the two player team could have University or Cycon, and none of the other players can choose from those 2 factions. No other handicaps.

Either game ends when my last city is taken, even if my partner is doing well. After all, the name of the game is KILL MONTY.

As for setup, I am thinking Marky's Excellent Adventure (on the modified balanced Vets Map) would be ideal. One of the 3 factions starts in the edge of the central island cluster closest to his teammates. Otherwise, if someone wants to design a balanced 3 vs 2 map, I am fine with that.

No copters. No attrocities. No AI.

I am flexible about whether we play with tech stagnation or pods. I'll let the opposing team decide that.

So, is anyone interested in KILL MONTY? Can we find 3 brave volunteers up to the challege?

[mmontgomery]

Obviously, the setting must not be to anyone's liking.

Can anyone suggest changes to the setup to make it more appealing?

[florin79c]

Well, i will try once more if you give me the chance. I will take Hive this time for a change.

If i have to pick from tech stag and pods, then i will pick pods.

[mmontgomery]

You can have tech stag and pods both if you want, as long as your partners agree.

[florin79c]

I'm up for the chalange. Who wants to team up with me?

[Eldramatico]

I am in for the challenge

email me at Eldramatico@yahoo.ca or Orcbienvert@msn.com

Elian "Loevan"

[florin79c]

One down one to go. Wellcome mate

[Eldramatico]

i just red about the copters and atrocities. I think it would be fairer and funnyer to let them be, as you can vote the atrocities and everyone will get prohibitions by using them. Its would be more interesting. About copters too... would you mind to let them on? Also, i see you want to put a map predefined. I want to see the map before as you know it and i don't.

Sent it to me to "Eldramatico@yahoo.ca" or "o
rcbienvert@msn.com"

[mmontgomery]

Atrocities are not balanced when there are no AI factions; there are no prohibitions. With team play, there is no reason not to use atrocities all of the time. This is why I think atrocities must be banned on this type of game. Otherwise, you can expect every unit to use nerve gas all the time, nerve stapling as a first choice for drone control, etc. I feel that offense is already strong enough relative to defense, and that ubiquitous nerve gas makes the offense far too powerful.

As for copters, I think they are just too cheap for what they can do. The copter built-in blitz ability allows a single cheap copter to take out several units in a single turn. In contrast, a needlejet can only take out a unit every other turn, because of landing restrictions.

In my opinion, needlejets are a bit overpowered, even though though they can only attack every other turn. If copters did not have built in blitz, they would still be useful because of the option of not landing them at the end of the turn. But Copters with built-in blitz are just way over the top. In games were copters are permitted, I see little else built, except a few token land units to capture a city which has been stripped of all defenders by a few copters.

As for the map, if you are OK with the modified Vets map, with one of the 3 faction team starting on the central Island closest to the faction mates, I will send that map right now. If someone wants to suggest a balanced map for 3 verses 2, I am open to suggestions.

[florin79c]

I gevi him the map you give me, so he will know what he is up against.

To bad i cant stample, cose today i use stample with Hive and it did not afect me at all. I have no gain from trade and i was atacking the near AI, so i had nothing to lose. Was great

Aside this , i will thing again what faction i'll pick. Will let you know soon and we will try to find a 3th team mate, aside from BdanV ( i'll cheep him in reserve).

Good part about all this is that Elian is a maniac just like you , so it will be balanced.

[Eldramatico]

Hi,

Except for planet busters, there are indeed prohibitions for atrocities, until they are voted off. Every time you do an atrocity, you have 10 sanctions turns, and 10 + (10 x number of times you did it again) turns with trade prohibitions. If we are three player against you, this would be more at our disadvantage than you two. But of course you're right about planet busters. If there are no computers, nobody will change allegiance to attack the planbet buster's player. Only what, 10 turns without techs for destroying two huge bases?

Also I think they thought about copters when they created the game. The only chance to resist on copters is to have a strong defensive plan. The best thing is to have AAA units in a base with an areospace complex, as areospace complexes give +100% defense in the square. You have to be more careful to defend your bases. I think the thing that is overpowered is the Mind/Machine interface technology. It was good in the original, but now in the expansion you get 2 of the best projects in the game plus copters plus The thinker unit wich can remove drone while maxing the research. WTF??? Perhaps i would accept to remove the copters as this would lower the strenght of that tremendous research, wich must absolutely be researched as fastest as you can in every game. However, i don't think they are so much overpowered. Perhaps they do against computers; computers suck. They dont even understand that doing only military units will waste completely thier minerals with support costs. They dont understand they must build areospace complexes to defend. I know they thought about the copters strenghts and weakenesses because with hi level interceptors needlejets and areospace complexes, they are not that usefull. I think copters just give more possibilities and enhance the gaming experience. So perhaps we should think about it.

By the way, i checked the map and i noticed there are like 12 starting locations? Is there any player starting in the middle? there is a spot in every corner named "Payer X start location" but there never a player started there exactly when i tried it. How does it works? Can we choose a player, or there are fixed locations for given players in advance?

Elian

[mmontgomery]

There may be some prohibitions against trade with atrocities. I have not checked that. Normally, the biggest restraint against atrocities is that after a dozen or so atrocities every AI in the game will declare vendetta against you, if they have not before. I know from my experiments that atrocities do not effect human pacts. If we were to allow atrocities, I would still want to ban planet busters. But I don't really think atrocities add anything to the game, expecially without the AI players.

There is no way that anyone could convince me that copters are balanced. The multiple attack per turn capability is incredibly valuable. And how much extra must we pay for a copter compared to a needlejet or rover for this outstanding ability? NOTHING!!!

It is suspicious to me that the game help files for copter do not say anything about the multiple attack capability. It is also suspicious to me that a gravship, which seems to be an evolution of the copter, does not get multiple attacks per turn. It is my theory that copter multiple attacks was an idea that was put in at the last second without adequate play testing for balance, and in fact copters ruin the balance of the game because of that ability. Once copters become available, they are the dominant unit. And that includes games with human players, unless the human players are inexperienced.

Here are some costs for comparison:
4-1-10 copter : Cost 20 : Attacks up to 10 times per turn
4-1-10 needlejet : Cost 20 : Attacks once every other turn
4-1-10 gravship : Cost 20 : Attacks once per turn
4-1-2 speeder : Cost 30 : Attacks once per turn

To be balanced, copters should cost at least 40 for this amazing ability, yet the cost is exactly the same as a needlejet. Even more amazing is the gravship, which one would think would be superior to the copter in every way, only gets to attack once per turn.

SMACX is a game of initiative. High mobility gives first strike, which is very important since most units are have much higher attack values than defense values.

It does not make any sense for copter speed to be on par with needlejet speed. Jets can fly much faster that copters in real life. Yet in SMAC they are the same speed. If copters had speed 5 with 10 fuel, and only started taking damage when fuel is 0, this might balance copters. But this is not the case.

Furthermore, the copter can attack the speeder with no additional capability. If the speeder wants to be able to attack a copter, it costs even more!

The multiple attack ability has another critically important implication. A needlejet or speeder must stop after making an attack, regardless how many moves might be remaining, and is vulnerable to counter-attack. The copter after making a couple of attacks can withdraw to a safer position.

Finally, copters with Air Superiority are better than Needlejet intercepters, because a single copter can wipe out several needlejets in a single turn, and can even withdraw to avoid counterattack.

In summary, the copter is clearly unbalanced, and game play reflects this imbalance if copters are permitted. This is why I strongly prefer to have copters banned, unless someone knows a way to edit copters to remove their multiple attack capabilities.

As to the last point, I believe the most balanced start would be for the 2 faction team to be in the NE and NW continents, and for the 3 faction team to be in the SE and SW continents, with the third faction starting on the south central island, closest to his team mates. For the two faction team to have a chance, the two factions need to be relatively close for mutual support, and relatively far from the enemy factions to give some time for development.

We do need a moderator to set this up for us. Perhaps Mart or some other moderator would be willing to volunteer.

[Eldramatico]

Would be fine to remove the copters for me. I have spoken to uselesses and he wants to join us. (aoxr11@dsl.pipex.com) We may be starting soon.

Perhaps it would be a little funnyer to leave atrocities in the game. I won't probably use them, but perharps i would do nerve stalping at the beginning or use X gas pods if my faction is endangered. But usually, I never use them.

So no planet busters. Is there any supply crawler hurrying, or we turn'em off for projects?

[florin79c]

We allways played hurrying SP with crawlers.


About pod's, i think it will be bestto leave them off cose it will rader resoures at same time and i dont know who has the time to put them back by hand( i sure dont) and to place pod's by hand....i dont know, so off for pod's.


About atrocities i say again off cose if i play Hive i will stample my way through the hole game, so again off.

Copters...I'm not fixed about this and this may be cose i have never sufferd from a full copters atack so far. But i know this, a well traned rover can do multyple hits as well, but it cant hide forever as a copter can go back and forward and beeing a PBEM game, you wont know what hit you. So off once more.

Yes, i know Uselesses want to join us, had a chat about this with him. Will see.

[Eldramatico]

Ok, perhaps pods off and atrocities off, even if it is not what i would have chosen. Can I at least take the Hive in this game?