Bear Baiting 101 Tracking Thread

[smacksim]

Originally posted by HongHu
In my opinion, it is the player's responsibility to play honestly, and it is the CMN's responsibility to put a check on any and all unwanted behavior. It is only fair to all the players and the offender.

I disagree. There are so many opportunities to cheat. Trust must be established. A CMN has enough of a job just setting up the game. This isn't Romper Room where the 'parent' is responsible if a child hurts themselves on a trampoline. A CMN should be called in if the players can't resolve a problem. Anyone who needs monitoring isn't fit to play.

-S

[Kody]

I can feel the fuility of arguing as there seems to be almost an overwhelming majority against Enigma. However, I guess I'll try even though I was the architect of what happened.

I had no doubts that when I announced that Enigma was cheating he would get ejected from this community. That's why I kept avoiding the issue, as I felt for some reason he didn't quite deserve that punishment.

Enigma really loves this place, he changed his sleeping patterns just so he can be around when most of the other players are too. He's also more obessive than me about checking these forums and that's saying something. He also loves the game SMAC spending hours looking into the game. If it wasn't for his faults I have no doubt he would be one of the key people around here.

People are worried about Enigma cheating, the difference is now that he will be that he really is on his last chance and I'm sure he's acutely aware of it. My observation is that Enigma follows logic to fault. I think previously he believed himself immune to being confronted and he had never been confronted. So logically he had no reason not to cheat. Now it's a harsh reality that everyone is going to be looking over his shoulder and he can't afford even a minor discretion as any goodwill would fade like the dew at midday.

Sometimes losing everything then being given it back can really change people. Perhaps not.... The question is are people willing to wait and see, because Enigma has the potential to give alot to this community. I know people think that it may be a waste of their time, but sometimes you need to take a chance or two. This doesn't mean you have to trust him, you only to allow him to stay and show whether he's changed as he actually claims he has.

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by smacksim
I'd like to see Enigma make a post about fighting a habit like cheating.

This is fair. I would like to see if Enigma can take up this challenge. If he can make such a post, then I will challenge you all to give him a fair chance.

[smacksim]

Kody, is this true? From HoF replacement thread

Originally posted by Maniac
People, please keep in mind that most likely Enigma_Nova's "Okay from now I'll play fair" attitude is simply another of his tricks which he used before by the way. I hope you won't all be fooled once again... Though I expect you will.

• Enigma did not come forward himself, even when given the chance
• Enigma did not change behavior when given the chance
• Enigma has done this before?
• Enigma doesn't believe much in trust (from his post above)
• Pbems are built on trust
• Enigma has wasted 100s of hours of peopless time in games that must be fixed, discussed, or restarted

Any two of those reasons is enough for me to say a BAN is much needed, some, only one of those reasons.

I do really hear you all defending E_N now. HH, Kody. I am not at all deaf to that. I think your post eloquent Kody. I would actually change my mind based on your last post if not for this:

Sometimes losing everything then being given it back can really change people. Perhaps not.... The question is are people willing to wait and see, because Enigma has the potential to give alot to this community.

I agree wholeheartedly with the first. But things need to be lost, not 'almost lost'. How should I know wheter E_N really has felt he could lose everything until I'm sure he's lost it? This is where the sentiment breaks down.

I agree that E_N has the energy to give to the community, and I'd be sad to lose that potential permanently. If he cannot sit out a ban, then it was too delicate an energy.

Based on the defenses from you and HH, I would propose:
A month-long ban, unless anyone in any of his current PBEMs was willing to keep going (ala Googlie's insanity). It would be better if he were banned from Apolyton entirely though (edit: for the month). That is how to keep it simple and straightforward. Further I would require a statement of intention and trust from Enigma before he be let back into the forums at all. Not that I have the power to do any of these things, except not play with him personally.

-Smack

[Enigma_Nova]

I'm more comfortable in letting them have their doubts, Kody.
As a Logical type of person, I know there are hundreds of games and thousands of forums.
In effect, being removed from this 1 game and this 1 forum isn't much of a hurdle.

The opinions of others do not affect me, and I am experienced in leaving old circumstance behind.

The main problem will be that Kody has another guilt trip because
he used Codicil to spy on others' games,
he lied about vets' playing habits (past cheaters indeed)
he broke promises by his own admission

I'm starting to think he enjoys guilt as much as I enjoy conflict.
Meh. Each has their own agenda, and until that crosses mine I'm okay.

[Enigma_Nova]

Fighting a habit like cheating?
Already over it.
Concerned about PBEM playing?
Already over it.
Fazed by a ban from Apolyton?
Already over it.

I am impervious to all damage.
There's no real way to punish a self-denying pessimistic nihilist.
Unless you get in the way of my goals, but you can't do that.
There's always another alias by which to spread my influence.

As a matter of fact, I've already managed to locate HongHu and Kody.
I'm pretty unconcerned about the rest of Apolyton.
Having located those two, my mission here was a success!

So... hit me with your best shot.
I would drop the exploits and play some PBEMs,
but I figure you're all already over it.

[smacksim]

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
I'm more comfortable in letting them have their doubts, Kody.
{...}
Meh. Each has their own agenda, and until that crosses mine I'm okay.

That is not acceptable.

No matter how razzed you feel by being the center of this, and continuing to be with statements like that, I care not.

That statement demonstrates:

• Unwillingness to work with others for a solution
• Your intention to keep everyone focused on yourself
• That you are only interested in your own comfort
• That you only care about your own agenda even if it crosses that of others

Go ahead man. Walk away from here and find a new place to act on these attitudes. Or stay here and own up to the situation. Own up to the fact that those attitudes are incompatible with a community. Take your trout like a man.

-S

[smacksim]

More on the matter, which I was going to post in HH's dramatic 'I'm quitting' thread.

E_N, even when you are denying it, I can see that it's not pleasant for you to be in this situation. You don't have to say 'I don't care, I'll just find a new community to go to' when you are feeling hurt by your own actions. Stay and be a man about it. Earn the respect of others rather than pretend you don't care. I can see you do. Anyone can. Leaving is a cycle that never ends. If you do leave because of a bitter pill like a ban, you should know that I will be forever pissed for writing the above.

[Snowflake]

Enigma, I am not going to give up on you. I trusted you to be able to do what you said you can do. I still trust you. It's fine if you hate me for bringing you into this. I can understand what and how much you have gone through.

[smacksim]

So where do I go to request that administrative action be taken? I am planning on following through on making an official complaint unless something comes to light.

-S

[smacksim]

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
You won't be swayed either way now that you have an opinion.
Nice playing with you, smacksim.

What I mean by 'screw the past games':
**** happens, get over it.

And so I do.

I think you can see, this is not the case E_N. I'm not holing up in an opinion, unable to change. It's important, especially when discussing justice, not to make statements that can't be changed in the future. I didn't 'get' this post of yours at first. Now I see your meaning. Don't worry about that E_N. I'm certified in Conflict Mediation and Consensus Building. It's not likely I'll lock my opinions down.

-S

[Enigma_Nova]

If the community doesn't suit the individual there is incompatibility at both ends; sure as ****, if you're not bending, then I'm not either.

I can see that it's not pleasant for you to be in this situation. You don't have to say 'I don't care, I'll just find a new community to go to' when you are feeling hurt by your own actions.

You're picking up your own scent, barking up the wrong tree.

Earn the respect of others rather than pretend you don't care

Sincerity isn't something you can detect, because you've never felt yourself close enough to know what you are.
I'm not in a position to care.

Cheating isn't against Apolyton forum rules; you can't do crap.

[smacksim]

No, I can't really do crap. But:

XVI) So, to be sure, what will most probably mean the disablement of my login?
(added with v.1.5, 7/August/99)
Double Log Ons...
Massive spamming in a thread
Multiple identical comments posted in many different threads.
Hate Threads... Or seriously hateful posts
Massive Flaming
Behaviour which is considered distruptive to this site.
No explicit sexual discussion allowed
Doing anything after an Admin or Mod tells you not to do it.

Usually, common sense is the rule of how we want things to work here

I think this fits 'Behaviour which is considered distruptive [sic] to this site.'

Perhaps I'm wrong. I just need to find an admin and ask.

-S

[Flubber]

wow-- quite a fuss

To me the remedy is simple-- those that no longer wish to play enigma . .. don't .. . It took me two turns of one game to come to that realization and thats all the attention the issue warranted.

[smacksim]

True, quite a fuss.

Not really true: Remedy Simple

My suggestions:

Definate Do's:

Players should be forewarned. Two turns is two too many. If this warning should expire, the time should be set by the community.


Probable Do's:

Cheater should be banned for awhile. This isn't a single case. This is 100's of hours of wasted time.

Cheater should make every effort to clean up the games, problems, etc. they caused before ban takes effect (E_N's doing this now, which is )

Cheater should convince a Moderator that they will behave in the future. Moderator will be in turn convinced by the community response, methinks. This should be public.

Clear rules for handling this should be made topped. This was a bit of a mess.