Bear Baiting 101 Tracking Thread

[Googlie]

In ytyke, both Chaunk and I are aware of E_N's multiple reloads, but in a masochistic way are continuing the game (although in his latest post Chaunk has indicated little interest in continuing)

I'm just treating E_N as a more intelligent AI (hey, we know the AI cheats, E_N cheats, ergo .......)

But it'd be interesting to know if E_N would agree to a "the gloves are off" PBEM where everyone can cheat as much as - and as innovatively as - they like (and I still hold that card to play in ytyke - there are things a veteran CMN has learned that can be done to "level the playing field" against a known cheater)

G.

[Snowflake]

I had an argument with Kody about how cheating should be treated. Kody believed that you should let the person know that his cheating is noticed, so even if he wins he'll know that it is meaningless. With time, he'll want to give up cheating because all he gets from it is meaningless wins.

I believe that if cheating are found, it is the CMN's responsiblity to let everybody know. It is unfair for people who spend time to play honestly to be excluded from such important information and right to decide if they want to continue. It is also not healthy for the person who used the exploits, since if he knows that he can get by every game without being caught, he would not have any incentive to give up cheating.

In this game my post effectively forced Kody's hand, even if he is still hesitating about it.

After Kody came out and gave Enigma his last warning, I PMed Engima. I told him I understand to fight ones habit is very hard. And I understand that he is facing immense pressure in this game, since it is basically set up as all the others against him. So it is understandable that he has even less incentive to fight his habit. However now that he knows that cheating would not be tolerated, I expect him to change, for I know he loves this place, and I know he loves his game. I asked him if he will be brave enough to say that he will fight his old habit.

Enigma PMed me back with very positive attitude. He said that if going clean means that he would lose 10% chance of winning a game, but would give him 400% chance that others will play games with him, he'd go for it. He actually proposed to restart the game, even knowning that people has learnt a lot about this game (like the governor election, etc.).

I believe him. I have seen him change his style of posting. He used to be very aggressive and abusive, but he has learnt to become more civil. I believe if he really tries he can change. All he needs is someone to tell him, this is not the way to go. If you want to continue to play games with us, you need to go by the rule, and stop using those exploits.

I think it is unfair to say that Enigma used his last chance to talk to me. When you say you are giving people a chance, you need to actually see what they do. You have to let him actually play, and see if he actually have the will power to change and stay away from cheating.

I, for one, is willing to give him that chance. I'm willing to help him fight his old habit, and let him prove himself. With the help from all of us, he can win this fight.

[Enigma_Nova]

Better start making 0wn3d pictures of myself, eh?

Googlie levelling the playing field?
My workers have been changed to specialists, haven't they? :/
You've traded bases with my AI doppleganger and received my SPs, haven't you? :/
Or better yet, use the fact that passwords are open-knowledge and gift the University to the AI using Codicil!

What I'd like to know is how the hell Kody gets passwords for these games... especially Heart of Fire, in which he is a player.

Googlie: Getting the PWs from the hex and using Codicil would make a 'gloves are off' game a little pointless.
Whoever plays first just eliminates all the other factions and they win.

However, there are some things to do...

[Maniac]

wrong thread

[Enigma_Nova]

On further thought, screw it.
I'm withdrawing from my PBEMs.
So I've proved that I can get the lead with trainers.
In effect, I've proved nothing.

Let's see what happens when the chips are down, and every person is on equal footing aside from their wits and their factional advantages.

Now, scrap any PBEM in which a former was reactivated.
The past proves nothing, time to make a statement of the present.
Of course, the harder the challenge the better the game.
Maybe I should let all you guys cheat just to even the playing field a little.

[smacksim]

Kody, that was quite a lot of effort on everyone's behalf. Thanks for your time. I did NOT suspect some of those motivations behind this game after having heard that E_N was possibly a cheater. Rather, I thought: 'Ah, here is a game where E_N gets to be the center of attention' and we get to act out our impulse to squish him. . No, I had no idea that you might set this up as a mileu for exposing cheating. I feel a little used (blech). But clearly all of us like to ramble on, even when it might not be that important in the long term, and I'm no exception.

I've wasted a lot of breath on Enigma. I enjoy PBEMs, which is why I sign up for them. As a former middle-school teacher, I also enjoy nurturing youth. But you see, these are somewhat exclusive aims, as this case has demonstrated. I commend you for your patience, but now I think it's time to ban Enigma from PBEMs despite his withdrawing above.

Even just in the text of this thread, just between he and I, I find reason not to play with him again. I asked him to fix the problem and he didn't. That's really it for me. But with the evidence you have brought forward, with talking with E_N myself in the chat room, etc.., it is all too clear that he has wasted many people's time and will continue to do so.

I agree with HongHu that Enigma has shown an ability to adapt, to behave, as it were. It's just too little too late, every damn time. This game was 'NO CHEATING'. That is utterly clear. Considering his exposure to this rule previously, he should be treated like an adult and banned. The fact that he 'came forward' with only half of his cheating, things that could be mistakes, compounds my sentiment. I believe Kody's stats about reloads. I do not believe Enigma, considering he's made no statement on the issue at all, but only sulked off.

No apology. No statement of denial or acceptance. No plan to fix the situation. Yes, here is someone unworthy of PBEMs. Grow up E_N, get a new nick and email, and come back to Apolyton then. You are fun to chat with, despite your spam posts everywhere. But no one is going to miss this behavior.

I'll wait a few days then lodge my formal complaint, unless E_N can demonstrate that Kody is wrong or that he has changed. Considering your 'Well I'll just withdraw everywhere' attitude, with no apology, I can see that you feel put-upon Enigma. If you have cheated, PWN up to it. If you havn't, defend yourself.

-Smack

[smacksim]

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
On further thought, screw it.
I'm withdrawing from my PBEMs.
So I've proved that I can get the lead with trainers.
In effect, I've proved nothing.

Let's see what happens when the chips are down, and every person is on equal footing aside from their wits and their factional advantages.

Now, scrap any PBEM in which a former was reactivated.
The past proves nothing, time to make a statement of the present.
Of course, the harder the challenge the better the game.
Maybe I should let all you guys cheat just to even the playing field a little.

I see I cross posted with your edit. I don't understant the bit about 'scrap any PBEM in which a former was reactivated'. You mean, don't take it as evidence of the present?

I'll watch a game with cheats, but it's too time consuming to reload for me. Not much fun.

-S

[Enigma_Nova]

You won't be swayed either way now that you have an opinion.
Nice playing with you, smacksim.

What I mean by 'screw the past games':
**** happens, get over it.

And so I do.

[Chaunk]

"**** happens, get over it" is not good enough enigma. You've picked up a reputation as someone who will cheat, and that reputation follows you.

At the moment, I concur thoughly with smacksim. You seem to not care about what you've done, about the time other people have wasted. You don't even seem to see us as worthy of an apology.

To me, you leaving your games without an apology or an admitance of anything, except to say "Sprung" or whatever, is like the nail in the coffin. I can easily see a way for you to regain trust, but for now, you've lost mine, and I imagine, other peoples too.

[Kody]

No, I had no idea that you might set this up as a mileu for exposing cheating. Rather, I thought: 'Ah, here is a game where E_N gets to be the center of attention' and we get to act out our impulse to squish him. . No, I had no idea that you might set this up as a mileu for exposing cheating. I feel a little used (blech).

I'm sorry Smacksim and the other players. It wasn't setup to expose Enigma's cheating. I had the idea that I would be able to force him to play the game without cheats if I caught him.

[Enigma_Nova]

Aside from claiming that I've been 0wn3d and pointing to my new sig?
You know that I'm not too concerned about trust anyway.

[Snowflake]

People, you have to understand a person. When you have done something that you are not supposed to do, and you know that you'll be facing an angry mob, and you know that it is not anybody else's fault but your own, wouldn't you hesitate a little before you make up your mind to come forward?

I wish Enigma would allow me to post his PM to me before all these happened. But I guess he is too proud to let me do it now.

Yes we all have every right to bash Engima. Because he did what he shouldn't do. We have every right to refuse to let Engima participate in our pbems, because we don't trust him. But how many of us can swear that he/she hasn't used any of the exploits even once in his/her life? How many of us have reactivate formers, clicked in the dark, how many of us have reloaded in a SP game? Yes some says it's ok to do it in a SP game, but you can't do it in a MP game. That's right. We all learnt sooner or later what is the right behavior in a MP game. Enigma hasn't learnt it earlier, because too bad when he cheated the first time, nobody caught him, and later when somebody actually caught him, he was let go. Nobody told him that he cannot get by by cheating. Until now, when we accumulate all of his past offenses, and throw him away.

I'm not saying all he did is not wrong. No. They are wrong. And he deserves to be punished. But all I'm asking, is that he deserves one chance, to prove that he can fight his old habit. He said he is sorry for screwing up. He said he is willing to go clean. Why couldn't we give him that one chance that everybody deserves? What would cost us if we give him a chance to prove himself? Most of you are men. You understand what "male pride" is. What do you expect from Engima for you to believe that he is willing to go clean?

[smacksim]

A very nice Sig Enigma. I'm impressed. To a certain extent, yes, you are at the mercy of your accusers or detractors. Do not let this stop you from making an apology in the actual thread, rather than in your changable sig.

PBEMs are based on trust. I hope you will forgive me for warning anyone who plays with you, if you are not banned. That is, until you take a new attitude with trust, and are explicit about it.

Kody, yes I see that Bear Baiting wasn't entirely about E_N's cheating. On the other hand, I think we can all see a reason now to make public our concerns about cheating, rather than 'see what happens' more than once. This could be abused though, by people being found guilty before being given a chance to explain themselves. I just want to make the point that if someone is very likely cheating, then they are ruining their current games (well, with the exception of Googlie's masochistic attitude above). I think we all owe it to the players to bring this up immediately and let them decide what to do. Most are savvy enough to realize that an accusation, or partial evidence, isn't guilt.

Do we even have a policy on this? Would be nice.

-Smack

[Snowflake]

In my opinion, it is the player's responsibility to play honestly, and it is the CMN's responsibility to put a check on any and all unwanted behavior. It is only fair to all the players and the offender.

[smacksim]

HongHu, forgive my tirade here, considering you are leaving the forums apparently.

Originally posted by HongHu
People, you have to understand a person. When you have done something that you are not supposed to do, and you know that you'll be facing an angry mob, and you know that it is not anybody else's fault but your own, wouldn't you hesitate a little before you make up your mind to come forward?

Definately hesitate. No use in real life getting squished - killed literally - by an angry mob, unless you wanna be a martyr for some cause.

However, this does nothing to surplant the total loss of honor and integrity by NOT coming forward, especially to a group as considerate and yes, caring, as those here at Apolyton. It takes the experience of having gone through this in life to lessen the hesitation, but most people, if they care about a community built on trust, will come forward if not coming forward is continually hurting others.

Originally posted by HongHu
{...} Nobody told him that he cannot get by by cheating. Until now, when we accumulate all of his past offenses, and throw him away.

This is offset by the large scale of offenses, if we are to take Kody's word for it. Nobody should have to tell someone that they can not get by with cheating. This should be obvious to anyone with the smarts to be able to play Alpha Centauri. This is societal. This is basic human upbringing. Even those who cheat know that they are in the wrong. They should expect justice, as I think E_N has. Further, the simple act of playing a PBEM makes obvious the trusting nature of the game. Anyone who can't see that they are ruining a game for others and themselves by cheating is simply not mature enough for PBEMs. E_N has again, in his last post stated that he doesn't care much about trust. Whether or not that's true (I suspect it's not true), it is a statement that excludes him from any further PBEMs.
And yes, perhaps Kody or others should have come forward sooner, but this is a process question, and not relevant to what should be done with the accusation in my opinion.

Originally posted by HongHu
I'm not saying all he did is not wrong. No. They are wrong. And he deserves to be punished. But all I'm asking, is that he deserves one chance, to prove that he can fight his old habit. He said he is sorry for screwing up. He said he is willing to go clean.

Where exactly? A signature is easily changed. I see no apology. The 'I will change' things are always implied, as if E_N is afraid to lose face by admitting wrong. Again, this demonstrates a level of maturity incompatible with PBEMs. You can not have it both ways. You must admit your mistakes fully. It's not the time to be cool, but to be honest.
I'd like to see Enigma make a post about fighting a habit like cheating. I'd like to see him post about realizing how much of other's time he's wasted, and what he hopes to do about it. That is the way to recover from a fall like this. Not through PMs or clever remarks. I wouldn't bet on EN making those public kinds of statements though, because they make a person look small. That's too bad. Here is a place where you can safely risk something like that E_N. Do it, if you even feel those things.

Originally posted by HongHu
Why couldn't we give him that one chance that everybody deserves? What would cost us if we give him a chance to prove himself? Most of you are men. You understand what "male pride" is. What do you expect from Engima for you to believe that he is willing to go clean?

Now if he had said that, that would be one thing. But you are saying it. That is another. Personal responsibility is paramount. As is trust building.

-Smack