[C4:AC] Keeping Civ4 changes?

[smacksim1]

Fun reading the thread. You guys were getting all 'het up' before there were even decisions to be made! But I do sympathise. Its exciting, and I too drink too much coffee on occassion I was glad to see things coming together by this third page, but I still have my fingers crossed that you can really do some work together. Its going to take a lot of compromise I should think.

Of all the positions argued in the thread, the thing that I most resonate with is: Get something working ASAP and build from there, adding features as people get motivated to do so. That is by far the easiest group-programming model I've ever worked with. Tasking people to do X, Y, and Z and hoping they come together to spell SMAC is something better left to teams working in physical proximity with tangible leadership and proven skillsets/expectations.

Actually, as usual, I pretty much agree with everything Blake has to say, both from a programming pov, from a group project point of view, and from a 'To Clone or to Adapt' pov as well. All three are part of the same equation which looks like this:

Possibilities A-->Z * Factor X = TangibleProgress

That X is delicate: Make working together on this as easy as possible; Make small incremental changes where possible rather than large wholesale ones. Keep a working version rather than dissassembling and reassembling, and by all means don't hold yourselves to cloning SMAC as the first priority and tossing out anything 'unclean'.

Just my 2 ecs. I may or may not have some time to give this, but am being very careful not to make commitments I can't follow up. And btw, Python + XML == Dreamy coding environment! This sounds like great fun, especially being that those two (script-lang + markup) are some of the best languages for non-coders to meddle with. It should be that everyone will be able to take a stab at the coding (hrm....maybe that's not such a good thing after all!).

-S

[Illuminatus]

Smacksim, for the love of Planetmind, check your PMs!

[Spatzimaus]

* as you pointed out yourself a lot of SMAC's early/mid-game tech tree consists of the colonists reinventing the wheel. So there'd have to be two tech trees: one for your extended Civ4 game, and one for the SMAC scenario.

I don't disagree. You WOULD have to have two somewhat different trees; it's not just the "reinventing the wheel" aspect that's the problem. Like you noted, there's the issue of all the techs/projects that involve Planet, or the Fungus. Unless you somehow have the Earth get overrun with fungus in the year 2010 (which, admittedly, would be pretty freakin' cool for a scenario), there's just not much point in those.

* At end game, Civ1-3 cities are quite capable; probably Civ4 cities will be as well. How many SMAC techs (beyond military) would really make a difference in the game?

Yes and no. I've actually already planned this one a bit, but I'll get into that below.

So really, you are asking for another (almost completely different) mod from a bunch of people looking to recreate SMAC.

No. The differences aren't THAT pronounced. Here's why.

I was playing SMACX again the other day, and I noted that there's really two major phases to the game; up until tech level 5-6, it really does feel a lot like Civ3. You're assembling your ever-improving army of tanks, planes, etc., you're spreading out to new locations, improving the terrain, it's all the usual formula. In fact, you could think of the existing Civ4 tree as including these techs (or vice versa), and remove the duplication; instead of the Internet, the wonder is the Planetary Datalinks. And so on.

But then, suddenly, things change. Fusion power doubles your units' effectiveness. Clean reactors remove unit support. Lots of tech start giving +production bonuses (Robotic Assembly Plant, Genejack, Nanoreplicator, etc.). Satellites give you a nearly infinite supply of food, so all your cities grow very quickly. Mineral production reaches the hundreds, to the point where practically anything can be completed in one or two turns in the core cities. Drop pods, orbital insertion, and psi gates mean your land units can get anywhere on the globe quickly. City defenses stack to the point where they're nearly impregnable, but anything caught in the open terrain gets ripped apart by aircraft. And so on. It's a completely different feel than the normal Civ games.

That second phase is the "future" I'm looking for. You could tack it on to the end of the Civ4 tree, rename some of the existing techs/wonders to match the AC names, and you'd have your ACified Civ4 ready to go. It's not just "more of the same" for cities; the Future cities would focus more on defense and raw production, with very little in the way of culture improvements.
The AC scenario, then, would take this core game, strip out the early eras (like most scenarios do), and add a handful of Planet- or Fungus-related items. It's not two distinct tech trees; it's a handful of "modern" techs that might or might not have different names but the same functions, a block of "future" techs that are completely the same in both trees, and a small set of scenario-specific techs. It's definitely not twice as much work.


If the people who read this don't think this is necessary, that's fine. But as someone who played a lot of SMAC, I'd just say that I have no interest in playing a "pure" straight conversion. If I want a SMAC-like game, I'll just load up the original game. What I want, instead, is a game that adds the style and story of SMAC to the improved game mechanics of Civ4. If the only way to get that is to wait for the total conversion and then hack my own mod together, so be it.

[Senethro]

Originally posted by Spatzimaus
If the only way to get that is to wait for the total conversion and then hack my own mod together, so be it.

By chance you've just hit the primary purpose of this mod. If you become a Civ4 modder we'd really appreciate you swinging by here occaisionally and offering whatever help you want, even if you don't want to become a member of this mod.

[drekmonger]

What I want, instead, is a game that adds the style and story of SMAC to the improved game mechanics of Civ4. If the only way to get that is to wait for the total conversion and then hack my own mod together, so be it.

The style and story of SMAC added to the improved game mechanics of Civ4 is exactly what I was hoping for as well.

I doubt a total conversion will not be useful for your purposes or mine, beyond any media assets created (and donated for use to any mod). I'm willing to bet that defining a new tech will be easy, meaning you could add some or all of your future techs in an afternoon or two starting with just the Civ4 base. Cleaning out all the total conversion gunk to translate tech/units back to Civ4's systems might actually take the same time or longer than just creating anew.

Depends on how complicated it is to define a tech...I would be shocked if it weren't an easy thing to do.

[Blake]

I believe the idea of a total conversion as clone has been shot down. While it will be a total conversion we wont be hesitant to keep Civ4 gameplay mechanics if they prove enjoyable.

If some people still want a smac clone, right down to gameplay mechanics, THAT should be the fork.

[Senethro]

Originally posted by Blake
I believe the idea of a total conversion as clone has been shot down. While it will be a total conversion we wont be hesitant to keep Civ4 gameplay mechanics if they prove enjoyable.

If some people still want a smac clone, right down to gameplay mechanics, THAT should be the fork.

Says who? I think you've convinced yourself sufficiently. Otherwise, its still clone until we know cloning can't be done.

[Blake]

*sigh* cloning is impratical. I'm tired of rehashing the same argument but here's an extract from the Firaxis Civ4 World Builder manual., it's relevant enough to what we are doing.

MANAGING THE SCENARIO
If you have never managed a project before one of the first things you will notice is that interest will rise and fall like a number of civilizations in history. You need to capitalise on the rises in interest and try to minimise the falls in interest. Aim to have the bulk of the heavy work done during rises in interest. Have someone do all the XML for the tech tree, or someone to create the map and city placements. Hopefully you will have interested a python scripter to do scripts during these highs. When interest begins to fall is your big moment. You need to consolidate what has been done during the highs and compile them into something that can be played. The easiest way to minimise (and hopefully avoid) a low in interest in your scenario is to have something that can be played. If people are playing your scenario (even if it’s only ¼ finished) then interest will be generated again. Then can you look to implement the next set of changes/features. By riding and manipulating the interest of people you can fulfil your original goal of creating a fun scenario. Sure, it does take time to create a good, fun, playable scenario. But in the end there is only ONE person who is required to maintain a high interest throughout the entire scenario’s lifecycle: YOU!
Good luck and good designing.

In short. We need to keep the mod interesting, the mod has to be something that Civ4 players want to play. This is best achieved by preserving as many enjoyable Civ4 game mechanics as possible rather than taking to Civ4 with a hatchet and brutally murderizing it then trying to put C4:AC together from the shattered pieces.
At best, a full clone should be a very long term goal...

[binTravkin]

Yeah, stop these talks about cloning please.

People who insist on that don't seem to get the grasp on reality about what needs to be done.

As Smack and Blake (and me) pointed out, we are willing to step-by-step transform cIV into SMAClike mod with each step coming closer to look and feeling of SMAC.

Even if you still pretend that 'clone' is our ultimate target, keep it for yourself, none of the programmers wants to hear it for the simple reason they know what it would take.

Some things to consider upon:

1.many SMAC mechanisms are buggy
2.some are probably obsolete to what is in cIV
3.some are less adding to gameplay to what is in cIV
4.MANY are mystical to us, we can only guess how exactly they work, and dream to implement, thus forget about them!


And yes, mod MUST be playable from the very first version and versions must come regularly, with very small yet noticable updates.
Reasons: Motivation, interest and continuity of the mod.

[Mart]

Something that I think we all felt.

As I was modding civ3, only doing graphics and unit rearrangements, techs, etc. I could see the amount of work needed for everything to make a playable thing.

And here maybe I am making a jump a bit out of topic:

1) SMACX source code might be finally released, smth ala call to power 2, where you still need all the remaining files next to exe to have it work.

2) A free SMACX game might be made, like free-civ or free-orion. However, I would see here more speedy action, like in making BOTF2 (Birth of the Federation 2), if anyone is aware of this project. It is almost done by a few persons. A project, that may be an example for any fan-based sequel. It is in beta-testing, demo due in several weeks I believe.

Anyway, the direction of approaching SMACX original with small steps is a good one. I think it is workable and the more we will "dig into" civ4 the more capabilities we will see.

[Chaos Theory]

Since Civ 4 is out, quit bickering and explore the game! Try writing a simple mod for practice, and get a feel for how easy or hard things will be to implement. I realize some of the arguments are essentially philosophical and are intractable, but some others should go away with the collapse of uncertainty over Civ 4.

If, in the end, we are completely at loggerheads over whether to keep SMAC's implementation of some feature, or use some or all of Civ 4's implementation, I say do both. Let the players make the final decision over which version is better.

[Darsnan]

Originally posted by binTravkin
we are willing to step-by-step transform cIV into SMAClike mod with each step coming closer to look and feeling of SMAC.

I think this is a good approach, and I can support this.

Should we amend our Mission Statement to reflect this change to our approach?


Note that I will be offline from about 9am - 7pm est today - gonna be out in the field taking data (in +4C rainy weather....). I'll probably pick up the game tonight and send out a sample Python file shortly thereafter. FYI.


D

[Kataphraktoi]

Since Civ 4 is out, quit bickering and explore the game!

i cant,im not on highspeed here. however it will be obtained from my other residence soon

[binTravkin]

Something to think about

[Googlie]

Originally posted by Spatzimaus
Creating a Total Conversion of SMAC is all well and good, but there are many things about SMAC that I'm glad have been removed. For instance, the ability to spend money on Secret Project construction, or to switch from SP to SP without penalty.

Just for clarification: the alphax.txt has the ability to be set at "never free" for changes in SP's:

50, ; Retool percent penalty for production change
2, ; Retool strictness (0 = Always Free, 1 = Free in Category, 2 = Free if Project, 3 = Never Free)
10, ; Retool exemption (first X minerals not affected by penalty)

(The default is "2", but can easily be set to "3"

and:

Originally posted by Chaos Theory
Features such as great people would be trivial to remove, and non-trivial to adapt to SMAC. That should be one of the easiest decisions in making a clone - cut all extraneous features that couldn't map to features in SMAC.

From a handful of civ IV games now played, it seems to me that the "great people" are an enhanced version of SMAC's Alien Artifacts - they can be used for tech advances, wonder builds, or to increase a city's science output, culture, and, my favourite, mercantilism (I got 2000 gold for sending one to a far away foreign city - enough to upgrade all my warriors to infantrymen!!)

Seems that those kind of tweaks to an AA would be welcome as they'd give more strategic options