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**Whoha** · August 5, 2004, 21:36

Hmm, No demo, and a growth penalty. These guys can't pop boom at all until future society.

-2 inherent morale is a bad thing, wealth just makes it worse

.

as for their benefits: +1 probe,+1 commerce,+10% interest on loans,30% more votes,40 extra ecs and a probe team. These are all nice, but do not compare with the penalties.

The Free Rec Commons thing is very very nice though, it might offset 1 of the horrendous penalties, but not both.

The immunity to police is wierd, on the one hand it means 1 police unit which is interesting, on the other it means that you can run fm and go to war, but with very very green troops.

I say pull the morale hit,and maybe even give them impunity or immunity to morale hits.

**Natalinasmpf** · August 6, 2004, 02:15

You realise you can only have eight options at most for a faction right?

-1 Growth: Generally, realistic.

+1 probe: Gangs suspicious and resistant to infiltration, realistic, also

Why the morale penalty? Generally, being criminals, they should be more prepared for fighting, then say, your naive 15 year old draftee.

Conscripts and mercenaries can be crack troops, too. If you train them well.

Research penalty: Generally, being a criminal or not does not affect research. You had Mad Scientists working for them, and punks discouraging it. It should be neutral: don't include it.

Recreation Commons free? Wha? Why the emphasis? Isn't on crime? Generally, your faction, should receive an extra drone every six citizens due to the ruthless crime, however, it should gain +1 police from the tough internal regulation. Keep the immunity to police. Generally, the tough free market and ruthless selfishness is typical of crime, but immune to the police effects.

Given their suspicion in the elections, any corruption in the elections would be neutralised. War? Surely they would use war...they will fight openly with force if they must.

**Chaos Theory** · August 6, 2004, 09:15

Re: Realistic Balanced Custom Factions.....

Originally posted by livid imp
IMMUNITY POLICE: {No police, just street thugs, but troublemakers still have a habit of disappearing anyway}

Nice, as this allows useful garrisons in all cities, in all conditions.

-1 GROWTH: {Brutal lifestyles kills off many before breeding}

This penalty makes Planned a poorer choice, as pop booming is squelched. Free Market, because of the immunity to Police, becomes pretty nice.

-1 RESEARCH: {Education is not highly valued in a criminal lifestyle}

A modest penalty, as a negative factional research rating increases tech costs.

-2 MORALE: {Armies consist of mercenaries and conscripts}

Minor, my fresh troops are almost always very green anyway. Win with numbers, or superior technology.
I suppose this closes the door on early rover rushes, though.

+1 PROBE: {Exclusive crime family inner circle}

A minor boon, though since Fundamentalism becomes more appealing with the uselessness of Police State (impunity police + FM) and the impossibility of Democracy, this could actually be somewhat nice, allowing +3.

+1 Commerce: {Black market activities}

Another minor boon

10% Energy Interest: {Loan Sharking}

HUGE! You're on the fast track to cornering the global energy market with this! If you sit on your money, spending no more than you receive directly from cities, you double your money approximately every seven years! Early on, before there's anything to hurry, you'll build up a very nice pile of energy, enough to seize a SP with no trouble.

Free Rec Commons: {Emphasis on keeping the folks on the street happy}

EVEN HUGER! You get to ICS without ANY worries, especially with the guarantee of being able to use police. Size 3 cities with NO drone problems with almost no effort! Yang should tremble! Since you'll have so much energy, just try to get the PTS, to make up for a deficiency of growth. Get it, and you win, unless someone's already shoving impact rifles down your throat. Miss it, and you can still do fine.

30% More votes for governor {Corruption and bribery}

Helpful, as this makes another route to victory more plausible.

Start with 50 EC

Nice, but with the interest this becomes very nice. If you don't spend it too quickly, you'll have ~200 by 2114, and ~800 by 2128. Secret projects don't tend to get finished that soon, but you could buy one outright (after the first 4 rows), assuming you have the tech.

Start with a Probe Team

Nice, as this allows early scouting and infiltration. This can also offset the -research.

Priority: Wealth {Criminals seeking the easy life}
Aversion: Democracy {Crime families are inherently dictatorships}

Aversion: Demo is never a good thing, but pop booming is already fairly difficult due to -1 growth and this faction's tendency to ICS. However, with demo gone, there's no real good SE choice. Police State is even more useless than normal, and Fundy is only decent in war (covert or overt). Frontier is, as always, a fair choice.

Interested in Wealth
Will use force: No {War is too overt a method of acquisition}

What about starting tech, do they get any?

Verdict:
Very strong, with easy drone control and the ability to practically ignore bureaucracy. Ideal SE would be Frontier/FM/Wealth, taking advantage of Immunity: Police, the commerce boost, the interest, and negating the morale penalty. The PTS would be the best early SP, but getting IA before someone else takes the PTS might be a challenge. The probe team helps with this, though.
Several routes to victory are plausible: economic through interest, diplomatic through ICS and +votes, transcend through high econ and ICS, or even conquer mainly through probing.

**smacksim** · August 6, 2004, 09:33

I agree with the sentiment Livid Imp. It's really amazing that we don't have several packages of solid alternate factions already here. The answer is that most people find the starting 14 factions enough to work with and play with, but still! And you won't find any more balanced factions on the Net, well, not many more. So this is a very good project.

Commerce: 1-2, Interest: 3-5 percent are general max's in my own play testing. Interest above 5 percent leads to absolutely vast amounts of cash. Commerce: 2 makes it tempting to avoid all wars, which is nice to encourage building in an otherwise military faction (which this isn't, but in general)

The police immunity is nice. How about aversion to Knowledge? I agree though that for a mafia, democracy doesn't fit. They'd always point to that and say 'See, those democracies are so inefficient compared to our dictatorial style'.

I like the rec-commons thematically. Unhappy thugs would just leave the syndicate, and the rec commons symbolizes that effect. People join b/c they see easy money and power. This makes 'em happy. The unhappy ones are dead or leave. But as CT points out, it is pretty powerful, perhaps too powerful. Consider using "SOCIAL, +TALENT", or "Talent, 5" to give them an extra talent or an extra talent every 5 citizens.

Also, in the long run, if you are tempted to use the Smax-only special faction bonuses, consider using just 1 per faction so that they are compatible with both Smax and Smac. The extra abilites just get ignored by Smac.

I hope you make another 6, or get others to contribute their own 'balanced and fair' (tm-Spartan Federation) factions, and playtest them! It would be great to have a really strong alternate set.

**Chaos Theory** · August 6, 2004, 10:52

I saw a faction a while back whose core was

+2 Econ
-2 Effic

and was something like the Enron faction. It would be to Morgan what Domai is to Yang.

**livid imp** · August 6, 2004, 12:23

Originally posted by Whoha
Hmm, No demo, and a growth penalty. These guys can't pop boom at all until future society.

So don't choose them. My goal wasn't to make a faction you'd jump out of your seat to play. My goal was to make a balanced faction, that the player would have to learn to play differently. I been playing since SMAC was released, and the old factions/styles are boring to me anymore. The -1 Growth keeping you from pop-booming is by design.

Originally posted by Whoha
-2 inherent morale is a bad thing, wealth just makes it worse

.

This is a minor penalty. Ask around, most people pump out nothing but very green troops for half the game.

Originally posted by Whoha
as for their benefits: +1 probe,+1 commerce,+10% interest on loans,30% more votes,40 extra ecs and a probe team. These are all nice, but do not compare with the penalties.

Many of the abilities were picked not just to be balancing, but to be realistic. These are attributes a crime family would have. Plus they direct play style.

Originally posted by Whoha
The immunity to police is wierd, on the one hand it means 1 police unit which is interesting, on the other it means that you can run fm and go to war, but with very very green troops.

The 1 police represents the street thug. A street thug wont bother enforcing most laws, if someone robs you, he wouldn't care. But if you are going to become a nuisance (like rioting), they'll put a bullet in your skull and drop your corpse in the local swamp. So not a lot of policing, but not much unrest either.

**livid imp** · August 6, 2004, 12:49

Originally posted by Natalinasmpf
You realise you can only have eight options at most for a faction right?

Doh! I wasn't using a faction editor, so no, I didn't. I guess I'd drop the two start options then. They would have the least overall impact.

Originally posted by Natalinasmpf
Why the morale penalty? Generally, being criminals, they should be more prepared for fighting, then say, your naive 15 year old draftee.

Conscripts and mercenaries can be crack troops, too. If you train them well.

Morale can represent not only training, but loyalty. Conscripts and mercenaries will desert at the drop of a hat, therefore decreasing overall troop strength.

Originally posted by Natalinasmpf
Research penalty: Generally, being a criminal or not does not affect research. You had Mad Scientists working for them, and punks discouraging it. It should be neutral: don't include it.

The "Mad Scientists" are what keep this from being a -2 or -3. Besides, why would criminals work for what they can steal. The +1 probe directly offsets this penalty.

Originally posted by Natalinasmpf
Recreation Commons free? Wha? Why the emphasis? Isn't on crime?

Do some research on crime families and you'll find that they would commonly throw block parties and give gifts to the neighborhood locals. This was to build up good-will with the average Joe on the street so they wouldn't give information to the cops. People feel loyalty to those that take care of them, even if they are murderers.

Originally posted by Natalinasmpf
Generally, your faction, should receive an extra drone every six citizens due to the ruthless crime, however, it should gain +1 police from the tough internal regulation.

The difference is that regulation isn't just internal to the crime gang, but also to neighborhoods under their control. Petty criminals not associated with the crime family will either get forced out or rubbed out.

Originally posted by Natalinasmpf
Given their suspicion in the elections, any corruption in the elections would be neutralised.

Suspicion in the elections? What are you talking about? I think you misunderstood something.

Originally posted by Natalinasmpf
War? Surely they would use war...they will fight openly with force if they must.

Open warfare is not mafia style. Covert action would always be preferred.

**livid imp** · August 6, 2004, 12:57

Re: Re: Realistic Balanced Custom Factions.....

Originally posted by Chaos Theory
What about starting tech, do they get any?

No, this is by design. Developing tech wouldn't be a high priority in a role playing sense, and it helps balance out the faction.

Originally posted by Chaos Theory
Verdict:
Very strong, with easy drone control and the ability to practically ignore bureaucracy. Ideal SE would be Frontier/FM/Wealth, taking advantage of Immunity: Police, the commerce boost, the interest, and negating the morale penalty. The PTS would be the best early SP, but getting IA before someone else takes the PTS might be a challenge. The probe team helps with this, though.
Several routes to victory are plausible: economic through interest, diplomatic through ICS and +votes, transcend through high econ and ICS, or even conquer mainly through probing.

You are right on the same page. This basically what I was thinking. Do you think it is a little too strong though? Smacksim mentioned the 10% interest being too high and I think I will cut that in half.

**livid imp** · August 6, 2004, 13:23

Originally posted by smacksim
Commerce: 1-2, Interest: 3-5 percent are general max's in my own play testing.

I had not play tested it. Given that you have, I'll trust your numbers and readjust the interest to 5%.

Originally posted by smacksim
The police immunity is nice. How about aversion to Knowledge?

A crime syndicate wouldn't really be adverse to tech, they would simply find it to be unimportant. OTOH, opening it self up to the world (-2 probe), just doesn't make sense for a crime family. So that is a borderline suggestion. I am reluctant to restrict too many SEs though. Not a bad suggestion overall.

Originally posted by smacksim
I like the rec-commons....But as CT points out, it is pretty powerful, perhaps too powerful. Consider using "SOCIAL, +TALENT", or "Talent, 5" to give them an extra talent or an extra talent every 5 citizens.

But you are not going to attract talents to a crime syndicate. If the RC is too powerful I'd rather reduce the factions benefits, or remove the RC benefit altogether, rather than lose the 'criminal empire' feel with a load of talents.

Originally posted by smacksim
Also, in the long run, if you are tempted to use the Smax-only special faction bonuses, consider using just 1 per faction so that they are compatible with both Smax and Smac. The extra abilities just get ignored by Smac..

To be honest, I don't even know what are "Smax-only" bonuses. I bought SMAX the day it came out and never played vanilla SMAC since. Truth be told, I don't even consider myself to be the best person to be doing this as I have basically zero experience with modifying SMAC. I would have been perfectly happy finding a good alternate faction set on the net.

**Chaos Theory** · August 6, 2004, 13:55

As far as the 8 ability limit per faction, there are two sets of abilities. One set is limited to 8, and includes things such as TECH, Ecology and SOCIAL, ++RESEARCH. The other is unlimited as far as I've seen, and includes things such as TECH, 1 and IMMUNITY, EFFIC. I have a list of those, but my computer is in pieces right now.

You can for yourself which abilities are limited by putting an easily tested one at the end (say, +PROBE), and checking whether it has an effect. If it does, great. If not, move other SOCIAL abilities after it until it shows up. Now you know how many you are in excess. Try putting other abilities after +PROBE instead to see if they count.

**Flubber** · August 6, 2004, 14:05

I think I agreed with most of what chaos theory said. No pop boom and slow growth means a smaller faction early but you can go FM with half of its penalties eliminated. With interest at 10% and the probe rating, I was seeing this faction as a prober faction that would go FM and get energy banks going.

If you could get the PTS for the growth, you would be laughing and using an ICS style, you would be ridiculously wealthy-- Perhaps if you toned down the interest a bit as you indicated you would, they could be fun to play.

As for balance . . .

I think they would kick the ass of the AI since the AI wouldn't think to deny you the PTS and the AI doesn't defend against probes very well. You would steal all their tech (negating the research rating) and then start stealing their bases (negating bad growth)

In a PBEM, I think they mightstruggle against alert opponents that would move quickly to grab the PTS before you and would move to boom away from you population wise. The only equalizer I see is the possibilities of massive cash coming from constant FM and the interest effect.

Interesting mix though as you would have lots of money and little need to spend much of it on drone control. The interest is a wild card for me as I have never played with interest on. It just strikes me that it could be a huge advantage, particularly with a faction like this where you don't need to spend money early

**smacksim** · August 6, 2004, 15:01

Interest adds a nice dimension to the game. "Should I rush-buy now for turn advantage, or earn interest for later advantage?"

CT, I didn't even know about there being 2 lists of abilities. That could be useful to know! When you get your computer back together, could you post such?

As to having no experience modding, that's what we're here for

, what makes Apolyton so great. If you really don't care about making it compatible with SMAC, you can use the Smax "NODRONE = Number of drones per base made content" to make a half-rec commons effect: Nodrone, 1

I bet if you post a list of ideas for the other 6 factions and request 'fair and balanced' you'll get a few of us to take up the task...

**Kaboth** · August 6, 2004, 18:04

Personally I've always loved the original 7 faction and to a lesser extent the Alien Crossfire 7. I'd love to see them all more balanced rather than creating entire new factions which while cool just don't have the feel of the firaxis ones which we know so well largely due to the addition of their leaders sound files and such.

Though I wouldn't really know how if I were to balanc the 14 firaxis factions, rather than change them all I'd probably just locate the weakest to give more benefits to and the strongest to weaken a bit:

Just wondering if you guys agree with me on which factions need stregthening and which need weakening:

In need of strengthening:
Spartans
Cult of planet
Data Angels (possibly due to probe rollover bug)

In need of weakening:
The Hive

Anyone have any other ideas? Sorry if you feel I hijacked your thread livid imp but I felt this was related to your discussion.

**Natalinasmpf** · August 7, 2004, 00:02

No comment on my faction?

Data Angels (possibly due to probe rollover bug)

Robust to knowledge?

This gives them +3 probe with knowledge and presentient....

In need of weakening:
The Hive

I think no pop-booming in any case, and -2 Econ is already penalising enough.

Hmm, immunity doesn't count in the eight limit? Ah, now let me edit the faction:

SOCIAL, ++GROWTH, SOCIAL, +INDUSTRY, SOCIAL, ---POLICE, IMMUNITY, Growth, IMPUNITY, Planned, PENALTY, Police State, NODRONE, 2, SOCIAL, REVOLT, 50, FACILITY, 6

Muhahahaha!! Behold my new communist faction! Btw, facility 6 is Recreation Commons.

For the Spartans, they should get a free children's creche at every base, due to the emphasis on morale, training and discipline, education. etc.

Cult should get +1 probe, because they are a cult, generally, revered to native life - which native life being immune to probe teams....

Announcement

Realistic Balanced Custom Factions.....

Realistic Balanced Custom Factions.....

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