Realistic Balanced Custom Factions.....

[girlfight_club]

Reposted from Sky Captain and...

I think when it comes to faction balance, there are only so many that can fit all the parameters of:

a) realism of society concept
b) current build of the game
c) balance with existing official factions
d) balance with best current, standard play strategies

Most of the factions at networknode.org were originally designed in sets of seven; now they're all bunched on a list. I think sets of 7 factions can be well-balanced with each other, even if they would be too weak or too strong when played against official factions. I'm pretty sure the designers on SMAX had this dilemma.

 

GFC

[livid imp]

Originally posted by girlfight_club
Reposted from Sky Captain and...

I think when it comes to faction balance, there are only so many that can fit all the parameters of:

a) realism of society concept
b) current build of the game
c) balance with existing official factions
d) balance with best current, standard play strategies

I agree, there are only so many that fit this profile, but I believe it is more than fourteen factions. All the basic faction templates have been done, but there is room for more hybrid factions (hybrid in design, not as in momentum/hybrid/builder).

Originally posted by girlfight_club
Most of the factions at networknode.org were originally designed in sets of seven; now they're all bunched on a list. I think sets of 7 factions can be well-balanced with each other

I understand what you are saying. That as long as all seven factions are balanced with each other, then it is fair.....which is true, it is fair to the players involved. But it is still not balanced within the game. I am sure you would agree that having seven factions all with a +10 to all stats would be fair, but would surely break the game as designed. Balance is still, and will always be, the holy grail of the mod/map designer.

Originally posted by girlfight_club
even if they would be too weak or too strong when played against official factions. I'm pretty sure the designers on SMAX had this dilemma.

Actually the SMAX factions are not as unbalanced as they first appear (with the posible exception of Cult of Planet). Pit any of the SMAX factions with Uni, Morgan, or Hive, and you still have a balanced game. Sure, maybe the Spartans would be crushed under the industrial weight of the Drones. But you have to go to these polar opposites to find imbalance.

[girlfight_club]

Originally posted by livid imp
I agree, there are only so many that fit this profile, but I believe it is more than fourteen factions. All the basic faction templates have been done, but there is room for more hybrid factions...

Actually the SMAX factions are not as unbalanced as they first appear (with the posible exception of Cult of Planet). Pit any of the SMAX factions with Uni, Morgan, or Hive, and you still have a balanced game. Sure, maybe the Spartans would be crushed under the industrial weight of the Drones. But you have to go to these polar opposites to find imbalance.

Uh... you seem to contradict your own thought that all 14 official factions are balanced. Surely if any two are obviously unbalanced, they're not all... um, balanced.

I am sure you would agree that having seven factions all with a +10 to all stats would be fair, but would surely break the game as designed. Balance is still, and will always be, the holy grail of the mod/map designer.

Oh, +10, Silly!

I'm thinking about seven equal factions that are more likely to be slightly weaker than original factions, but equal to one another.

This provides even greater challenge than a more difficult setting, as the experienced player wrestles with new challenges. (The game has a greater shot at breaking the player-- now that's interesting!)

As a matter of fact, I've been tweaking on this concept for quite awhile on SP-- it's this Toliman business I've been on about.

I'm not a big map tweaker-- though I applaud the practice-- since I feel that landing in a s----y location is what alien exploration is all about. But of course, in MP a balanced map and starting locations are a must.

I understand what you are saying. That as long as all seven factions are balanced with each other, then it is fair.....which is true, it is fair to the players involved. But it is still not balanced within the game.

Well, I have to refer back to me list:

a) realism of society concept
b) current build of the game
c) balance with existing official factions
d) balance with best current, standard play strategies

By your own suggestion, even the official 14 don't meet all these requirements.

The only solid solution is a new build of the game; one that has an extensive preferences menu to let hardcore players twiddle hundreds of variables and keep us out of trouble until Miriam is born.

Alert Natalinasmpf!

 

GFC

[Quezacotl06]

I only think u can count the original 7, because the aliens are too powerful on their own.

+3Police, +3Probe, +3Planet, +3Support, +2Morale, +2Growth, +4Effic in a set of 7 would make for the most balenced game, wouldn't it?

[Kirov]

livid imp, can you provide a file for your underground faction? i'm too lazy to make it on my own, and I concurr your opinion about 95% factions from network node.

The best one i've ever seen were mercenaries: bonuses to ECO (maybe even +2), minuses to Morale, research hospital in each base from the beginning of the game... Jesus...

On the other hand, it's next to impossible to invent a faction that would fit the SMAC vibes... remember, they were 'divided by ideology' and in that case even SMAX factions are out of place.

[GeoModder]

Mmm, not so sure about that, a probe-loving faction is a must IMHO.

[Kirov]

Well, SMAC factions have their ideology in a wide sense of this word; you could imagine a political party out of each of them; and just think about a party whose main programme is to improve intelligence forces...

[fluxionman]

I recently posted info on my own set of seven custom SMAC factions: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...hreadid=122762

I wonder what Imp's opinion of them might be.

[livid imp]

Whoa, I didn't know there was still activity in this thread, sorry for ignoring you all. Hope it is not too late to respond.

This is what I get for trusting Poly's the new post graphics

[livid imp]

Originally posted by Quezacotl06
I only think u can count the original 7, because the aliens are too powerful on their own.

I swear I need to make a separate post just on this. People are constantly stating how terribly unbalanced the aliens are......

Yea folks. That is the point. They are supposed to be unbalanced. They were part of an expansion pack which was supposed to address player complaints of not enough challenge in the game. The two unbalanced factions force even the best players to do a little a$$ kissing in the beginning of the game and forces said player to choose sides and play as a submissive....at least until Nerve Gas is discovered. The design (for as ugly as it appears) was brilliant.

Originally posted by Quezacotl06
+3Police, +3Probe, +3Planet, +3Support, +2Morale, +2Growth, +4Effic in a set of 7 would make for the most balenced game, wouldn't it?

Ummm.....how would max Police/Probe/Planet ratings be balanced? I hope that was a joke.

[livid imp]

Originally posted by Kirov
livid imp, can you provide a file for your underground faction?

No

Originally posted by Kirov
i'm too lazy to make it on my own

I don't have a fully fleshed out faction file yet. I just used another faction's files and changed the important stuff. I plan on sticking my head back under the hood soon and finishing this faction up. If I really get my a$$ into gear, I'll put out an entire faction pack. So far I only have 3 or 4 factions though. We'll see what happens.

Originally posted by Kirov
On the other hand, it's next to impossible to invent a faction that would fit the SMAC vibes... remember, they were 'divided by ideology' and in that case even SMAX factions are out of place.

Are you suggesting that the SMAX factions have no ideologies? Of course they have ideologies. As a matter of fact, I was very happy to see the Drone's and Caretaker's socialistic ideology rather than the Yang police state ideology.

[livid imp]

Had this quick idea for a alien trader race. Kind of a Ferengi of Star Trek fame, except less nasty and more the purist neutral trader.

+1 Econ (Intergalatic traders)
+2 Efficiency (Very frugal)
-2 Industry (No Homeworld of their own, they live by flipping goods)
-1 Support (Each trade family works alone)


More to come.....

[Kataphraktoi]

Originally posted by livid imp
Are you suggesting that the SMAX factions have no ideologies? Of course they have ideologies. As a matter of fact, I was very happy to see the Drone's and Caretaker's socialistic ideology rather than the Yang police state ideology.

but the SMAC civs cover 7 different very distinc things,and contrasted with each other.the SMAX factions seem less main stream and more specialized.

[Quezacotl06]

Here's one I came up with a few days ago. Has really cool names.


The Mindfields
Agenda: Mental Monoism, group sentience
Techs: Social Psych, Progenitor Psych

+2 Research {Research abilities enhanced by group sentience}
+1 Probe {Experience with neuro-kinetics and mind-control}
-1 Morale {Prefer non-violent methods of control}
-1 Police {Citizenry paranoid about government repression}
Immune to Penalties of Thought Control Society: {Expertise in mind-control tactics}
May not use POLICE STATE politics

[livid imp]

Originally posted by Cataphract887
but the SMAC civs cover 7 different very distinc things,and contrasted with each other.the SMAX factions seem less main stream and more specialized.

This is true, to an extent......

But come on, just how realistic is a government based off of Academia or Conservationism? In 10,000 years of modern man roaming the earth, we have never had a government based on either of these ideals. To that extent we have never had a true Communistic government.

And what is the Spartans idealolgy anyway? Anarchy? What about the Angels?.....Ancharchy, both the same, they only vary in the method. What makes the Spartans the idealogical spokesman for Anarchy and the Angels immitations?