ACDG5: Demogame, anyone (especially newbies)?

[Nahkrinoth]

Mart, thanks for making our game. Vyeh, you governed our game well and patiently explained every question. I often poked you with questions just to get you to give us your entire line of thinking that I can use for research later.

[vyeh]

Originally posted by Verrucosus
P.S.: Sorry for having brought up the SMAC/SMAX issue in the first place.

There is no need to apologize for bringing up an issue. You raised a legitimate reason.

My problem was with the newbie that wouldn't agree to SMAX and never participated in The Wardroom.

[vyeh]

Originally posted by Nahkrinoth
That was a lot of fun, vyeh and Bodissey! In many of the later turns I was less involved not because of inactivity, but because I could find little fault in your military strategy.

I'm really glad you had fun. I enjoyed looking at your ideas. I am not surprised that you were less involved in later turns. It is wasteful to switch strategic direction.

In the early turns, we were faced with strategic choices arising out of:

(1) exploration: once we saw New Sargasso, the Atlantic Ruins and the Geothermal Shallows, we knew we had an opportunity to establish a powerful presence there.

(2) luck: we were lucky to build some very expensive crawlers from popping material supply pods at the time we could build the Planetary Transit System. This allowed us to build our population to the point where we had the second most number of votes and could get elected Planetary Governor.

(3) actions of the AI:

(a) I didn't realize that establishing Midway (on the energy bonus you were interested in) two squares away from Bikini Bottom would trigger a vendetta (nor did I realize it would reduce our reputation from "noble" to "faithful;" establishing bases within the territory of treaty partners is a violation). We had identified the University as a faction we'd have to take on because of their lead in tech, but we weren't ready to fight them (we were using our IoD's, our only naval transports at the time, to fight).

(b) When Deidre used a chopper to destroy the defenders in E pur si mueve, we had units that could occupy it. And that gave us an opportunity to capture the Hunter-Seeker Algorithm. I thought we might have to destroy the base or allow the Hunter-Seeker Algorithm to be recaptured because of the weakness of our forces. Instead, we kept the Hunter-Seeker Algorithm, which meant we could ignore enemy probes.

In the later turns, these three factors played a smaller role in affecting our strategy:

(1) our exploration was complete.

(2)

(a) there was less opportunity for luck: there were only two unity pods left on the map (even if we had built The Cloning Vats a few turns early, we would have to wait until we got the funds from salvaging the fusion core - ours, the University and the Hive -- or cut back on our research before we could grow the bases; there is a big difference between a few turns and losing the secret project to the University).

(b) luck still played a factor: when the sunspot activity occurred and we could use nerve gas again, we were able to accelerate our operations against the University with aircraft; when it ceased, we had to use our marines and artillery.

(3)

(a) as we got more powerful, the allied AI's were less willing to do us favors (e.g trading tech, giving us fusion needlejets) so their action became less of a factor in our strategy.

(b) late in the game, the Hive moved its only AAA probability sheath defender out of The Hive. This allowed us to attack The Hive earlier (otherwise, we would have to wait until the marines and the shard squad were done with Zakharov's Last Stand).

There were still some places where our military strategy could have been improved. For instance, we had a fusion marine parked in Peacenik for a long time. We should have used it offensively.

Originally posted by Nahkrinoth
I could've been more hands on with sea bases beyond placement.

I think it was around the time a fire took out your connection when I suggested that you figure out the movement orders to allow us to establish some new sea bases you had proposed (I think Sea Harvest was one of them). At that time, we needed both a sea colony pod and a garrison unit in the same spot. Since the garrison unit couldn't be a sea unit, that meant a transport was involved.

Then we got the Living Refinery, which restored the ten free minerals. This permitted us to simply send a sea colony pod out alone, establish a sea base, switch to trance scout and have a stable sea base the next turn. (We ran a small risk of a mindworm attack between the time the base was established and the production of the scout, but I think we'd only have lost one citizen.)

For most of the sea bases, the overriding consideration was to minimize the drain on our treasury. Should the sea formers build mines or tidal harnesses?

While tidal harnesses generate 3 energy and take 6 turns to build (as compared to 1 mineral and 8 turns for mining platforms), the inefficiency for our distant bases approached 50% (Sea Harvest is losing 3 out of its 6 energy). So a tidal harness would only contribute 1.5 energy on average.

It cost 2 energy to buy a single mineral. In addition, there is an advantage to accumulating 10 minerals. Since I was hoping that we would eventually be able to trade for Adv. Ecological Engineering with Deidre (which would cause mining platforms to produce 2 minerals), it made sense to build mining platforms (which also had the side benefit of slowing down growth -- a kelp tidal harness combination produces 3 nutrients; a kelp mining platform combination produces 2 nutrients -- which gave more turns before we would have to have a recreation commons.

Even if we didn't rush a recreation commons (and have to spend funds from our treasury), a recreation commons costs 1 credit per turn.

The less drain on our treasury, the more energy we could allocate to research. Since the University initially had a tech lead, research was vital.

Originally posted by Nahkrinoth
Come up with some ideas for what you'd like to play and we'll knock them around.

What are your interests? All your posts at Apolyton have been in ACDG5 threads.

You've said you've been playing single player for years at the thinker or transcend level and that you like cyborgs.

You've said that you want to be a better builder.

You've said that you're trying to get a good idea how to build and manage really great bases.

[vyeh]

Originally posted by Nahkrinoth
Vyeh, you governed our game well and patiently explained every question.

Thank you.

Originally posted by Nahkrinoth
I often poked you with questions just to get you to give us your entire line of thinking that I can use for research later.

This is a good time to ask questions.

[Nahkrinoth]

Yes, I have. That last game didn't give us much opportunity for vertical building map size and aggression. You've also stated it's better to build horizontally anyways. Unless we're forced into a position where we'd have to concentrate on infrastructure instead of expansion, it would be useless.

I think our next game should be smax.

[vyeh]

Originally posted by Nahkrinoth
Yes, I have.

Is this in reference to my comments that began with "You've said ...?"

Originally posted by Nahkrinoth
That last game didn't give us much opportunity for vertical building map size and aggression.

I took a look at the start of MY 2178 (when sunspot activity began).

We had just captured Bunker Palace Hotel. We had captured 300 Down (the former Spartan Command), Bring on the Clowns and Trolls are Us in the last few years. Santiago still had two or three bases.

We had recently captured Peacenik with three secret projects and Stellar Door.

Hot Springs and New Sargasso had recently been established. Atlantic Ruins was only a little older.

We had recently conquered Miriam's last base.

Drydock was prototyping a shard (A13) penetrator.

We were building a lot of sea colony pods.

At this point, we could have gone in one of three directions in response to the sunspot activity:

(1) we could have continued on the same path of building sea colony pods to claim territory (and supplies toward building The Living Refinery, which make it easier to establish stable sea bases);

(2) we could have switched to building a lot of combat units with nerve gas with the goal of subduing The Hive and The University as fast as possible (we might have been able to finish conquest before the sunspot activity ended); or

(3) we could have built vertically (biology labs, network nodes, tree farms).

The first led us to a diplomatic victory. The second might have led us to a conquest victory. The third would probably lead to a transcendence victory.

Originally posted by Nahkrinoth
You've also stated it's better to build horizontally anyways.

There are benefits to both horizontal growth and to vertical growth. The optimum strategy probably lies in between the two extremes. We did build some network nodes and we did build some tree farms.

If we had not taken the Hunter-Seeker Algorithm and built the Planetary Datalinks, we would have had to build more network nodes and biology labs to maintain military tech parity.

Because we acquired the Hunter-Seeker Algorithm, we were building probes instead of biology labs.

Because we didn't have many biology labs and network nodes, there was little need for energy banks.

Since we didn't need vertical development for our campaign against The University or The Hive and both Deidre and Morgan were establishing sea bases, it seemed important to claim as much territory as possible so it would be our sea bases rather than theirs fueling the race toward transcendence.

Originally posted by Nahkrinoth
Unless we're forced into a position where we'd have to concentrate on infrastructure instead of expansion, it would be useless.

What would be useless?

Originally posted by Nahkrinoth
I think our next game should be smax.

I agree.

However, for there to be a game, you would need:

(1) a CMN. Mart hasn't been very active in the forums. I suspect he is busy.

(2) a core of dedicated players. We started with a bunch of people expressing interest. Except for Bodissey, who had been and is active in multiplayer games, most of them had no experience in either demogames or multiplayer games. Bodissey has indicated that he wants more players. Usually, the turnplayer responsibility is rotated. He played the turns through the entire game.

[Nahkrinoth]

That was a reference to your comments. At that later point in the game when it was clear we were going for territory and a population victory it was useless to start building infrastructure. That's what I meant.

So we'll need to find out if anyone wants to play a game with us and we'll need a new turn player if Bodissey doesn't want to do it. If we find lots of people we could do another multi-team demo game.

[vyeh]

What are you interested in getting out of a demogame?

E.g.

- something new (then you'd want a CMN that added new units, etc.)

Take a look at Into the Hornets Nest (you can stop after reading the first two posts).

This is a smax game. Does this game meet your interests?

[Nahkrinoth]

I'm interested in playing a scenario completely different than a standard game. Weird arbitrary rules imposed that will make us weigh classical choices in a new light. I want the AI to actually have a chance to win. In our last game after we had established our own island at no point did I think failure was even slightly possible.

That game looks interesting.

[vyeh]

I've started a new thread in the AC Creation sub-forum seeking a scenario that fits your criteria.

I've also posted a query in the Civilization Gaming Network SMAC/X General forum. (A long time ago they use to have regular SMAX challenge scenarios.)

[GooglyBoogly]

HOw did you post in CGN? All of the threads appear locked to me

[vyeh]

I created a new thread. I'm registered there.

[vyeh]

Maniac and Darsnan have suggested SMAniaC with super AI's."

SMAniaC is a mod pack. As a matter of practicality, it would require you to copy your entire SMAX directory so you could overwrite safely many of the standard SMAX files.

This is an excerpt from Maniac's post introducing SMAniaC and the super AI's:

Originally posted by Maniac
The overall goal of this modification pack is to widen the strategic choices available to the player. Over the years a number of ‘best strategies’ have been developed of which deviating can be lethal in a multiplayer game. Most of us here all know them: race to crawlers, tree farms and air power. Use chop&drop in combat as soon as available. Forest & Forget, or go advanced all the way, with no overall third terraforming strategy available… This leads to whole aspects of the game being unused as unprofitable, for example a fungal strategy to name just one. With six years of experience behind us, we can identify these forgotten aspects and try to rebalance them so they become a viable strategy next to the already familiar ones. This can only increase the fun of our beloved game! In this short description I’d like to sum up a few of the changes you can expect: A social engineering system and a tech tree with a wider variety of attractive choices. Strengthened naval and native life combat & terraforming. Weakened air power. And so on.

...

The full version of SMAniaC consists of three parts:
1. the core SMAniaC download (~2.5 MB)
2. a set of seven new custom factions (~2.5 MB)
3. Boosted AI faction files (1 MB)

...

A new set of seven factions for SMAniaC!

...

They were just put together based on my long experience with SMAC on what would in theory be balanced factions.

...

This file contains a set of faction files to create a more powerful AI.

...

They should perform better than the unedited factions, but as always there's a lot of variance in AI success.

...

You don't need to play a custom faction. E.g. you can play the Gaians with super tough opponents (which can include any combination of the original SMAX factions and the seven SMAniaC custom factions).

Is this what you had in mind?

[vyeh]

Mart gave all the AI's built-in perimeter defenses.

Perimeter defenses have no effect against naval and air combat.

Because of the way we approached the game (our naval units took out enemy sea bases first, then our air force would eliminate enemy land base defenders and we would use ground units to occupy empty land bases; when we started using our fusion marines against the University in 2184, our probes had taken down the perimeter defenses), these perimeter defenses had little effect on our game (other than forcing us to expend some probe teams).

If we had not seized the Hunter-Seeker Algorithm, then the AAA probability sheath defenders behind perimeter defenses would have been formidable and those X shard batteries would have been critical.

[Nahkrinoth]

Smaniac looks crazy. I'm willing to play any scenario. We could really use some more players.