1-nutrient requirement makes for dynamic game!

[vyeh]

The maximum size of a base is 127. Don't forget the base square's production (2-1-1 w/o recycling tanks or bonuses). Bonuses squares will also affect the final figures.

[TimeTraveler]

Originally posted by vyeh
The maximum size of a base is 127. Don't forget the base square's production (2-1-1 w/o recycling tanks or bonuses). Bonuses squares will also affect the final figures.

I could care less about the marginally present bonus tiles and base squares, especially since they don't affect the values of various terrain improvements in gameplay, except for boreholes that cancel out nutrient bonuses, fungus that cancels out everything, and resource restrictions that are canceled by resource bonuses. Edit: Okay, they may be of some concern, but it merely means that fungus may be marginally less worthwhile than otherwise.

However, the size-127 limit could be an issue for any base that collects more than 127 nutrients from the base square plus field. And the base square plus 14 squares of 9 nutrients each makes 128. ...so I guess the boreholes could be handy if the bases are spread far enough that one gets 15 or more field tiles. Otherwise they (along with everything else) wouldn't be worthwhile in the long run.

I may want to figure out their value in the short run, though.

[Zeiter]

Originally posted by TimeTraveler
It may get more complicated than that. When farms and enrichers are +2, a condensed soil enricher will give 9 nutrients. Combined with sky farms, that's enough to feed nine people. If those nine people are combined with nessus mining stations and orbital power transmitters, that also equates nine more minerals and energy in the long run. Or 10 each if the square also is rolling and has a river.

Sky farms make each nutrient worth one person, and the other facilities make each person contribute an extra mineral and energy no matter what they do. So one may as well assume that each nutrient someone gathers is (in the long run) also worth one mineral and one energy.

A base collecting 9 nutrients per turn from each of the 20 tiles in the city radius would ultimately be able to feed 180 people total. That's 180 minerals and 180 energy. Plus the benefits of whatever those 160 specialists are doing.

If the base had six of those enrichers replaced with boreholes, it'd be 126 nutrients, 36 minerals, and 36 energy in the field. That's 126 people. 36+126=162, which is how much each of minerals and energy that base would get. It also would gain from only 106 specialists instead of 160.

So with orbital improvements and 2 nutrients per farm and enricher, a condensed enrichers is worth 3 minerals, 3 energy, and 9 specialists more than 6 boreholes.

Likewise, they'd also be worth 6 specialists and 4 minerals and energy more than forests (hybridized), and 7 specialists and 4 minerals and energy more than fungus (all tech, no Manifold Harmonics). Sea tiles may need to be beefed up, too, like allowing condensers and enrichers there.

Boreholes, fungus, and forest squares would have to be greatly altered in terms of output. If boreholes gave 9 minerals and energy each, it'd still be short 9 specialists and give lots of ecodamage. It may have to give out more (10? 11?) to be worthwhile. At that point they'd be overpowered until one actually has the orbital stuff and enrichers, or unless the 3+ mineral bonus came late in the game. So then what?

At least the fungus can increase in strengh at a gradual pace determined by technology. So it can be like 2/3/3 when other stuff is like 4/0/0 or 0/6/6, then like 4/6/7 when the enrichers are 9/0/0 plus extra space resources and specialists.

That's all true, but by that point in the game, the game is not really in doubt. And by that point in the game, you want things to progress quickly, as you are probably getting kinda bored with it, unless you and the AI are still neck-and-neck. Also, you must remember that I disabled pop-booming without GA's (through SE changes), so you'd have to have continuous golden ages in order to pop-boom to those heights.

Here's an idea too: disable soil enrichers? I think I shall do that. It's kind of weird, after all, to have such an improvement for nutrients when there is no equivalent improvment for energy or minerals. The condensor works just fine as an improvement for nutrients under this scheme.

[TimeTraveler]

The idea of disabling soil enrichers does sound fairly decent to me. Maybe then they can be even with boreholes and forests and fungus.

Of course, I still think forests and fungus would be actually worthwhile to me if each produced either one more nutrient or one more mineral and energy. Assuming I don't get the Manifold Harmonics. The techs that increase fungus production may also need to be sooner than stuff like Centauri Psi if the forests, farms, and boreholes max out at Ecological Engineering and Planetary Economics.

[TimeTraveler]

Okay. I think I have an odd, yet hopefully plausible idea figured out.

Give farms double nutrient output. Disable soil enrichers.

Make forests 2 nutrients, 3 minerals, and 0 energy. Not counting effects of Tree Farms and Hybrid Forests.

Boreholes can have 8 minerals and 3 energy.

Fungus can ultimately have 2 nutrients, 3 minerals, and 5 energy. Assuming one fails to acquire the Manifold Harmonics.

I kinda wish I could power up the specialists too, though. Although I doubt the AI would pay a lot of attention to them, even if they were one's main source of what energy gives in the early game.

[vyeh]

In the alphax.txt file, about 3/4 of a way down, there is a section:

***

#CITIZENS
Technician, Technicians, None, Fusion, 3, 0, 0, 0000000
Doctor, Doctors, None, CentMed, 0, 2, 0, 0000000
Librarian, Librarians, PlaNets, MindMac, 0, 0, 3, 0000000
Engineer, Engineers, Fusion, Disable, 3, 0, 2, 0000000
Empath, Empathi, CentMed, AlphCen, 2, 2, 0, 0000000
Thinker, Thinkers, MindMac, AlphCen, 0, 1, 3, 0000000
Transcend, Transcendi, AlphCen, Disable, 2, 2, 4, 0000000
Drone, Drones,
Worker, Workers,
Talent, Talents,

***

The fourth-to-the last, third-to-the-last, second-to-the-last columns govern economy, psych and lab respectively. Increase a number and you can power up the specialists.

[TimeTraveler]

I already know how to change the specialists' settings. ^^; I just don't think the AI would bother using them as they would tiles that generate energy. Although I suppose they could get enough from full-power fungus and boreholes and solar collectors. I may want to test out some new settings.

[vyeh]

Doesn't the AI use doctors to stave off drone riots?

Why not add economy and labs to the doctors?

[CEO Aaron]

Because it's a global change that would benefit players as much as, or more than the AI.

[livid imp]

If you want to help out the AI's power via terraforming, increase the benefits on solar collectors. As is, 99% of the time you get better returns with condenser farms than solar collectors. So humans never use them, but the AI always does.

If a low level (under 1000m) solar collector gained +3 energy, it would be the equivalent to a Librarian or Technician. A collector at the 2000m-2999m would be the equivalent of a Engineer (5 energy). If the AI was running FM or found a 3000m+ tile it would actually supercede the output of all except the Transcend, which seems appropriate. This would likely make the human players game more fun as well since you could justify a break from the ICS/condenser/borehole scheme.

[CEO Aaron]

3 energy is only worth as much as a librarian if you're experiencing little or no corruption. Nutrients and specialists still offer better returns once your empire expands, both vertically and horizontally, and even more so as you progress further down the tech tree towards more effective specialists.

[livid imp]

True. And you could increase the output of collectors even more to compensate. I am reluctant to modify too much without testing for unforeseen consequences though. I take a more throttled approach.

The center of the idea was mainly to make the AI more competitive without sacrafice on the players part.

Edit: A further thought on this. By inflating the value of energy, it will make founding a base worth less (energy wise), and improving an existing base worth more. This too could battle ICS.

[CEO Aaron]

To be honest, I think the only way to effectively battle ICS is to increase the corruption coefficient, making bases lose progressively more and more resources (both minerals and energy) as the number of bases increases.

I would also make distance less relevant in corruption calculations, to make fewer bases that are more spread out less susceptible to corruption.

[Kataphraktoi]

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
To be honest, I think the only way to effectively battle ICS is to increase the corruption coefficient, making bases lose progressively more and more resources (both minerals and energy) as the number of bases increases.

Or you could just hardlimit how close bases can be, like in civ4 and slap on massive city costs if you go over a certain number.

[Straybow]

Originally posted by alpha.txt
Improved Land, 1, *, *, 0, "*" columns are ignored entirely

It appears that the alpha.txt file can't change the value of solar collectors or mines. That would require a hack formal request to Firaxis to release the code.