1-nutrient requirement makes for dynamic game!

[Xian]

Thats odd.. I dont remember actually quoting myself!

wtf?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by CEO Aaron


Also, this change does nothing to address the AI's propensity to overproduce units and throttle its support, while completely failing to use crawlers or advanced terraforming.

Might want to consider modding factions to include free clean reactor on units.

[Kirov]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


Might want to consider modding factions to include free clean reactor on units.

Which would result in them sending ten times more oh-so-useful 2-2-1 units which you'd block with one impact jet and decimate with 2-3 missile rovers. I've noticed that that the great number of AIs' units pose a problem only during early rushes (when you land 10 tiles away from the Hive), after that two impact rovers with a sensor usually fend off literally tens of units

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kirov


Which would result in them sending ten times more oh-so-useful 2-2-1 units which you'd block with one impact jet and decimate with 2-3 missile rovers. I've noticed that that the great number of AIs' units pose a problem only during early rushes (when you land 10 tiles away from the Hive), after that two impact rovers with a sensor usually fend off literally tens of units

yup

A prepared ambush site where your rovers can retire to a monolith for repairs and have roads so they can move forward strike and then withdraw is ideal

[Sikander]

I agree with Laz that one of the root problems for the AI is their inability to terraform effectively, even when they are provided with plenty of formers. IIRC one reason for this is that Fireaxis made some late changes to the values of various sorts of tiles (forest being one big one), and unfortunately the requisite changes to AI scripting were not made (or at least not tested).

We've all seen the AI absolutely wreck fantastic terraforming when we gift them bases. This is because they cannot analyze the outputs, they merely follow their scripts.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Kirov


Which would result in them sending ten times more oh-so-useful 2-2-1 units which you'd block with one impact jet and decimate with 2-3 missile rovers. I've noticed that that the great number of AIs' units pose a problem only during early rushes (when you land 10 tiles away from the Hive), after that two impact rovers with a sensor usually fend off literally tens of units

I wasn't addressing AI idiocy as much as the problem CEO Aaron brought up. Namely over unit production and choking support.


I agree the AI is pathetic, but what else is new?


But as for your unit support issue being an issue in the early game, you'll also run into it being an issue as you start rolling up bases on the AI. All of a sudden 10 supported units from a given base you capture are rehomed to the next nearest base resulting in one of two things. A) next nearest base loses all productive ability B) Excess units in field go poof.

[Straybow]

Changing farming to +2 does much the same, plus actually rewarding the crazy AI. This also makes it possible for the human player to foreswear Farming or perhaps only Enrichers so you don't get the advantage intended for the AI.

[Zeiter]

Wait a second, you can change farms to yield +2?????

May I ask how?

[Maniac]

; RESOURCE INFORMATION
;
; Resource production (nutrient, minerals, energy, ) for
; special squares. In normal squares, these values are determined
; by the temperature, rainfall, rockiness, etc. of the square.
;
; "Bonus Square" value for particular category is added to other
; production in a square.
;
; "Improved Land" means farm, mine, solar
; "Improved Sea"  means desal, platform, harness
;
#RESOURCEINFO
Ocean Square,     1, 0, 0, 0,
Base Square,      2, 1, 1, 0,
Bonus Square,     2, 2, 2, 0, * Mineral +1 if mine present
Forest Square,    1, 2, 1, 0,
Recycling Tanks,  1, 1, 1, 0,
Improved Land,    [size=4][b]1[/b][/size], *, *, 0, "*" columns are ignored entirely
Improved Sea,     2, 1, 3, 0, * Mineral +1 with Advanced Ecological Engineering
Monolith,         2, 2, 2, 0,
Borehole Square,  0, 6, 6, 0,

Changing that I guess.

[Lazerus]

No way to change just farms ? since that looks like it will affect mines and solars aswell

[vyeh]

Since mines and solars do not get 1 nut, I don't believe changing the "1" to a "2" will affect mines and solars.

It is similar to the 2,2,2 of the bonus squares -- the first column only affects nut bonuses, the second column only affects min bonuses and the third column only affects energy bonuses.

[Mart]

maybe combined change:
+2 nutrients from a farm
1/1/1 from a forest instead of 1/2/1

would give back terraforming ability to AI. I remember that the common impression is that AI builds mostly farms and little forests

[TimeTraveler]

I recently realized an issue with changing the nutrient requirement of populations from 2 to 1. Shy Hydroponics Labs. Getting one to work in a base will require a unit of population, and if each population unit needs only one nutrient, then each one will be supported by whatever sky farm it enables. Combine that with nutrients gathered from the ground and you get a population that can keep growing for all eternity.

[Zeiter]

I recently realized an issue with changing the nutrient requirement of populations from 2 to 1. Shy Hydroponics Labs. Getting one to work in a base will require a unit of population, and if each population unit needs only one nutrient, then each one will be supported by whatever sky farm it enables. Combine that with nutrients gathered from the ground and you get a population that can keep growing for all eternity.

Whoa, yeah, that might not be the best idea, then.

Instead, I've found that leaving the 2-nut requirement, but then upping the bonus for improvements to 2 really makes the game dynamic and faster, while keeping it more balanced. It also balances out forests and the other improvements.

[TimeTraveler]

Originally posted by Zeiter


Whoa, yeah, that might not be the best idea, then.

Instead, I've found that leaving the 2-nut requirement, but then upping the bonus for improvements to 2 really makes the game dynamic and faster, while keeping it more balanced. It also balances out forests and the other improvements.

It may get more complicated than that. When farms and enrichers are +2, a condensed soil enricher will give 9 nutrients. Combined with sky farms, that's enough to feed nine people. If those nine people are combined with nessus mining stations and orbital power transmitters, that also equates nine more minerals and energy in the long run. Or 10 each if the square also is rolling and has a river.

Sky farms make each nutrient worth one person, and the other facilities make each person contribute an extra mineral and energy no matter what they do. So one may as well assume that each nutrient someone gathers is (in the long run) also worth one mineral and one energy.

A base collecting 9 nutrients per turn from each of the 20 tiles in the city radius would ultimately be able to feed 180 people total. That's 180 minerals and 180 energy. Plus the benefits of whatever those 160 specialists are doing.

If the base had six of those enrichers replaced with boreholes, it'd be 126 nutrients, 36 minerals, and 36 energy in the field. That's 126 people. 36+126=162, which is how much each of minerals and energy that base would get. It also would gain from only 106 specialists instead of 160.

So with orbital improvements and 2 nutrients per farm and enricher, a condensed enrichers is worth 3 minerals, 3 energy, and 9 specialists more than 6 boreholes.

Likewise, they'd also be worth 6 specialists and 4 minerals and energy more than forests (hybridized), and 7 specialists and 4 minerals and energy more than fungus (all tech, no Manifold Harmonics). Sea tiles may need to be beefed up, too, like allowing condensers and enrichers there.

Boreholes, fungus, and forest squares would have to be greatly altered in terms of output. If boreholes gave 9 minerals and energy each, it'd still be short 9 specialists and give lots of ecodamage. It may have to give out more (10? 11?) to be worthwhile. At that point they'd be overpowered until one actually has the orbital stuff and enrichers, or unless the 3+ mineral bonus came late in the game. So then what?

At least the fungus can increase in strengh at a gradual pace determined by technology. So it can be like 2/3/3 when other stuff is like 4/0/0 or 0/6/6, then like 4/6/7 when the enrichers are 9/0/0 plus extra space resources and specialists.