question

[d=me]

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=43865_UniversitySave.SAV

I just got industrial automatation this year from morgan.

[PJayTycy]

Originally posted by binTravkin
... mod 3 != 0

is not

... != 0 (mod 3)

Yes it is binTravkin. To a programmer, it might look like it is wrong (the right part is always 0), but this is actually how mathematicans write such formulas. The (mod 3) at the end means you should do "mod 3" to both the left and the right side of the equation.

As we don't know if d=me is either a programmer or a mathematician, the latter style might confuse him even more or make everything clear :-)


Anyway, d=me, don't care about this formula, go read the smac academy at CGN. It really helped for me.

[d=me]

Originally posted by PJayTycy



Yes it is binTravkin. To a programmer, it might look like it is wrong (the right part is always 0), but this is actually how mathematicans write such formulas. The (mod 3) at the end means you should do "mod 3" to both the left and the right side of the equation.

As we don't know if d=me is either a programmer or a mathematician, the latter style might confuse him even more or make everything clear :-)


Anyway, d=me, don't care about this formula, go read the smac academy at CGN. It really helped for me.

But as I said, if the equation can be changed to the two I gave above then every available tech can be researched.

[binTravkin]

I said it can't.

And I hate math

[Petek]

Originally posted by d=me
But as I said, if the equation can be changed to the two I gave above then every available tech can be researched.

The equations cannot be changed. They don't appear in the modifiable text files. They were derived by experimenting with the game.

I think that you want to find a way to modify the game so that every available tech can be chosen to research. I don't believe that anyone knows how to do this.

[Illuminatus]

You could get all prerequisites for technologies to none (I did that in the demo days) and you could choose almost every technology for research. But that eliminates the need for technology tree, since you can research singularity reactors and gravships right away.

[d=me]

Originally posted by Petek


The equations cannot be changed. They don't appear in the modifiable text files. They were derived by experimenting with the game.

I think that you want to find a way to modify the game so that every available tech can be chosen to research. I don't believe that anyone knows how to do this.

Yes, that's what I meant. If so never mind then. I'll just have to calculate my self everytime.

[BlackCat]

@ d=me

Took a look at you save and I'm a bit shocked. You haven't been in the Social Engineering window even one time !!!

A change to demo - green - wealth and increase labs to 90 % reduces your current research from 13 to 7 years !!!

You need to dig into SE and energy allocation - that will improve your performance quite a bit.

Oh, and the Marine Institute could use a mining platform or two - 1 min pr turn is a little low

Lastly, before I find a bottle of wine to relax my nerves - why aren't you building the Empath Guild instead of for example that perimeter defense in University Base !!!!!!!!! That nice little thingy is one of the most crucial SP's IMHO because it gives you total acces to all other factions (I know that probes can do the same, but it can be costly both in time and resources).

Sorry if it seems that I yell a bit - it's a bit of time since I did the same things

[CEO Aaron]

Ok, d=me, I've looked over your save, and your game definitely can use some improvement. Let's discuss:

First, your starting landmass is pretty tiny, and you have the map shown, so getting boats off onto those neighboring islands should have been of utmost priority. That means one of two strategies. My strategy would have been to make sure and grab the Weather Paradigm as my first project, so as to raise land bridges to the two islands to the southwest. The other option is to grab Doctrine:Flex asap.

I assume you started with 2 pods and a boat on your first island, in which case your second base should have been placed just across the causeway to your neighboring island. The early game is ALL about founding as many bases as quickly as possible.

Your base spacing on your largest island is also a bit liberal, considering your cramped space. I also really hope the mine in the northwest corner of that island was from a mining pod. At any rate, you've got TONS of unused area on those islands. Get used to having bases with overlapping footprints, otherwise you just wind up wasting far too much landmass.

But enough about looking backward. Let's look to what you can do to improve your position in this game:

I'm not ordinarily a big fan of seabases, but given your world settings, you're pretty much going to have to use them, or spend gobs of money raising land from the ocean's depths.

Given your abundance of coastline and your lack of land, I'd make a conerted effort to crank out some sea formers, plant some kelp and found a few seabases. On the landward side, have each base produce 3 or so formers to start crawling minerals from the plentiful forests you have lying fallow.

As Blackcat says, it's time to learn the mysteries of the Social Engineering screen.

Switch to Free Market/Wealth and start teching toward Environmental Economics, and get ready to start punching boreholes into your island. With the boreholes and forests providing your mineral needs and kelp farms providing nutrients, you'll be on solid footing to swing into the midgame. Once you've got about 2 to 3 times the bases you have founded now, switch to democracy, and crank up the psych to put all your bases into golden age. Once that happens, all your bases with creches built (in other words, all your bases) will increase in population until they reach the hab limits.

At some point, I'd seriously consider outright conquest of the Believer island to the north. A 3 transports with a full complement of marines will easily effect your takeover.

Finally, once your tech allows it, raise land bridges to the 4 islands nearest your capital. Having to ferry troops and formers with transports is a big pain and makes you vulnerable to the aggression of your neighbors.

[d=me]

If I lagged on discovery tech then how can I get the Hunter seeker alogrithm? I want that. And also I want other ones like the space elevators. And I don't want to lag behind in discovery techs that offers stuff like cloaking.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by d=me
If I lagged on discovery tech then how can I get the Hunter seeker alogrithm? I want that. And also I want other ones like the space elevators. And I don't want to lag behind in discovery techs that offers stuff like cloaking.

Pre-sentint Algorithms is on the road to fusion which is a key beeline later but your comments on "discovery techs" is misguided -- You will find that each of the 4 categories of techs can be prereqs for other categories. The one page tech tree shows you the necessary prereqs for every tech. The intertwining of the tree means you end up picking up most lower level techs by necessity.

Personally though I will NOT trade ANY techs until I get to Ind auto ( unless a military emergency or the tech is one on the route to ind auto). With this approach there are often a number of less useful techs that aren't slowing your research

I never care if I am the tech leader as measured by most techs. In fact I would often prefer not to be. What I want to be is the first to the techs that matter

[Kirov]

Originally posted by d=me
If I lagged on discovery tech then how can I get the Hunter seeker alogrithm? I want that. And also I want other ones like the space elevators. And I don't want to lag behind in discovery techs that offers stuff like cloaking.

d=me, I'm sorry if I sound a bit rude, but do you read at all what people write here? All the time you're getting fantastic lectures from the best players around (I had to lurk here for half a year to get the same), yet all you care about are some peripheral details.

Don't get the impression that we want to make you play SMAC as we do. If you prefer doing Discovery techs instead of vital ones, or building cloaked units in lieu of crawlers, have it your way then. But asking in such case why you lag in techs or get your butt kicked by AI is completely out of place.

[d=me]

Originally posted by Flubber


Pre-sentint Algorithms is on the road to fusion which is a key beeline later but your comments on "discovery techs" is misguided -- You will find that each of the 4 categories of techs can be prereqs for other categories. The one page tech tree shows you the necessary prereqs for every tech. The intertwining of the tree means you end up picking up most lower level techs by necessity.

Personally though I will NOT trade ANY techs until I get to Ind auto ( unless a military emergency or the tech is one on the route to ind auto). With this approach there are often a number of less useful techs that aren't slowing your research

I never care if I am the tech leader as measured by most techs. In fact I would often prefer not to be. What I want to be is the first to the techs that matter

If you concentrate on build techs what if the enemy has better weapons than you do and attacks right away?

And if you don't trade techs then won't you fall way behind dedire? I found out that the reason she is always so advanced is because that she trades like mad with everyone. When ever she comes in contact with me she always trade every one of her techs. She will trade her level 3 tech for your level one tech just to get more techs.

And the secret projects can't be built once someone else builds it. If you get applied relativity then you can build the super collider then research even faster. And if you built the hunter seeker alogrithm then you can cash in all of your infantry probe teams (I have 3 for each base at the point) that is defending your base.

And techs like cybernetics lets me use knowledge with no penalty once the hunter seeker alogrithm is built and that secret project solves my probe problem. It's very bad to have yang taking your tech because that's your advantage against his million army.

I just can't deal with the drones on free market. And the support cost of democracy makes me lose the secret projects. These are just too big penalties.

Now in the game that I uploaded I am the strongest right now.

[d=me]

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
Ok, d=me, I've looked over your save, and your game definitely can use some improvement. Let's discuss:

First, your starting landmass is pretty tiny, and you have the map shown, so getting boats off onto those neighboring islands should have been of utmost priority. That means one of two strategies. My strategy would have been to make sure and grab the Weather Paradigm as my first project, so as to raise land bridges to the two islands to the southwest. The other option is to grab Doctrine:Flex asap.

I assume you started with 2 pods and a boat on your first island, in which case your second base should have been placed just across the causeway to your neighboring island. The early game is ALL about founding as many bases as quickly as possible.

Your base spacing on your largest island is also a bit liberal, considering your cramped space. I also really hope the mine in the northwest corner of that island was from a mining pod. At any rate, you've got TONS of unused area on those islands. Get used to having bases with overlapping footprints, otherwise you just wind up wasting far too much landmass.

But enough about looking backward. Let's look to what you can do to improve your position in this game:

I'm not ordinarily a big fan of seabases, but given your world settings, you're pretty much going to have to use them, or spend gobs of money raising land from the ocean's depths.

Given your abundance of coastline and your lack of land, I'd make a conerted effort to crank out some sea formers, plant some kelp and found a few seabases. On the landward side, have each base produce 3 or so formers to start crawling minerals from the plentiful forests you have lying fallow.

As Blackcat says, it's time to learn the mysteries of the Social Engineering screen.

Switch to Free Market/Wealth and start teching toward Environmental Economics, and get ready to start punching boreholes into your island. With the boreholes and forests providing your mineral needs and kelp farms providing nutrients, you'll be on solid footing to swing into the midgame. Once you've got about 2 to 3 times the bases you have founded now, switch to democracy, and crank up the psych to put all your bases into golden age. Once that happens, all your bases with creches built (in other words, all your bases) will increase in population until they reach the hab limits.

At some point, I'd seriously consider outright conquest of the Believer island to the north. A 3 transports with a full complement of marines will easily effect your takeover.

Finally, once your tech allows it, raise land bridges to the 4 islands nearest your capital. Having to ferry troops and formers with transports is a big pain and makes you vulnerable to the aggression of your neighbors.

By conquering the believer "island" do you mean to get that land or destroy the believers?

[Flubber]

Originally posted by d=me
If you concentrate on build techs what if the enemy has better weapons than you do and attacks right away?

Well a nearby hostile faction consitutes an emergency and I may deviate. But more usually I will give them everything they want and maybe even gift them a tech or two- I want them researching something useful for me

Originally posted by d=me


And if you don't trade techs then won't you fall way behind dedire? I found out that the reason she is always so advanced is because that she trades like mad with everyone. When ever she comes in contact with me she always trade every one of her techs. She will trade her level 3 tech for your level one tech just to get more techs.

I did not say I will not trade techs . . . I said I will not trade techs early. tech cost grows hugely with each tech you have so a less useful tech can cost you years and years.

I actually don't care if I fall behind deidre in NUMBER of techs. I'll get all hers later anyway .

My typical approach is to go for IND Auto and centauri ecology and then you reassess based on the map and situation-- while restrictions lifting techs are the next goal I may go for flex or weapons depending on the situation

Originally posted by d=me

And the secret projects can't be built once someone else builds it. If you get applied relativity then you can build the super collider then research even faster. And if you built the hunter seeker alogrithm then you can cash in all of your infantry probe teams (I have 3 for each base at the point) that is defending your base.

I think I see the problem -- THREE defensive probes per base-- Thats just nuts except in key key positions-

Oh and I am aware of what the various SPs do and I bet on the same map my suggested approach would get to applied relativity decades before what you suggest

Put bluntly the quickest way to a far off tech may not be to proceed directly for it but instead to get the techs that greatly increase your industrial and research might.

Originally posted by d=me
And techs like cybernetics lets me use knowledge with no penalty once the hunter seeker alogrithm is built and that secret project solves my probe problem. It's very bad to have yang taking your tech because that's your advantage against his million army.

Funny-- I can play a game with not one probesteal against me even if I don't build the HSA. When crawler and trawler fields extend outward from your bases, you get ample warning of approaching probes-- The only thing you generally lose is crawlers

Originally posted by d=me
.

I just can't deal with the drones on free market. And the support cost of democracy makes me lose the secret projects. These are just too big penalties.

FM is tougher to learn but well worth it. Do you want me to solve your democracy support problem?? Yes?? Build two crawlers per base and have them crawl minerals from forest tiles. As you approach eco engineering build mines and move the crawlers to those-- That would be EIGHT MINERALS per base.

I suspect you have far too many units anyway. In the early game you can actually get away with very few. Sucking up will often avoid a war and if instead of building that extra unit , you build an extra crawler, you will quickly find that you have bases producing 10 or 20 mineral in EXCESS of support requirements-- If someone nasty shows up you can rush some troops in a single turn or use your better moneymaking abilities to probesteal some troops

Originally posted by d=me


Now in the game that I uploaded I am the strongest right now.

Good for you. It is always nice to be able to start to beat the AI. As you get better you will find more and more ways to do so.

Consider this, most people here ( on transcend) have won against the AI

-- building only one base
-- without ever building a crawler
-- without building one SP
-- requiring themseleves to build every SP
-- in scenarios where the AI have satellites , or preterraformed land or super units
--in games where they take a faction to first overall in the rankings and then use the scenario editor to take over the last place faction .. . bring that one to first.. again take over the last place faction and then win the game ( I personally have succeeded on the two switch challenge-- I understand some have done 3)

etc etc


But play your own way-- do whatever is fun for you. No insult intended but your knowledge of the game has been demonstrated to be at a beginner level. Learn from the people on here or don't-- just have fun. But if you are going to keep asking questions it would be helpful if you start reading the answers

I will take a look at your save tonight and maybe play a few turns-- it may be interesting for you to see where we diverge