question

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Commy
Never underestimate the power of amphibious units...your airforce may not be able to attack a base outright, but it can easily pave the way for a few transports...just pop a needlejet over any transport, and chances are your marines will easily make it to their target...

Comm jammers defeat mobile units, and AAA tracking defeats air power, but there is no defense against infantry when attacking a base...even with perimeter defenses and sensors, a little artillerly, a few missiles, or simply better weaponry can easily give you the advantage...the problem with infantry units is that its hard to reach an enemy base without getting wiped out...this isn't as much a problem with marine units as long as you keep them protected...

Against the AI, your tactic might work-- Against a prepared human in a PBEM, a stack of marines in a ship are just looking to die if they spend any amount of time outside a base.

My modification on your tactic is to bring along a couple of sea colony pods and create a seabase where your troops end their turn. It eliminates self-destruct tactic tricks, provides a closer base for air support, means successful probeships remain closer, and means you can't lose your entire force as easily if you are discovered on the way in

[Kirov]

Originally posted by Flubber


I wouldn't want to "get" you kata


Choppers do rock-- but airpower generally loses to a defender with aa and an aerocomplex(plus sensor). Thats why a key part of attacking is to get an aerocomplex down or to arty bombard.

Once you can get one base, you have a portal to allow your probes and ground units to attack into their empire

And just what do you do if your opponent has CBA?

Consider both MP and scenario with a tweaked AI.

[BlackCat]

Dammit, we are getting away from the subject - the people demands to see a save with those 100 needles - we want to see what sinister plots the government of d=me are making that weakens his glorious armies - post that save

[Kataphraktoi]

Ill edit in something coherent in the morning, when i can see straight again

[d=me]

Nevermind, I started a new game. That one got too messy.

And Still about the upgrading and building cheap units as you said, you HAVE to include the clea feature right? And you should take advantage of the 2 special slots right? And choppers have stronger attacks than needle jets? I didn't know that. And probe ships. I tried to use them and even built ones with armour (over 10 turns each) but they always get sunk before they reach the enemy base. They always bump into an enemy sea former or something and the enemy takes it out.

And for secret projects, is the WP really crucial? the morgans got it this time. The HGP was always the first one I build. The list goes

Human genome project
Virtual world
Weather paradigm
Merchant Exchange

[PJayTycy]

Originally posted by d=me
Nevermind, I started a new game. That one got too messy.

You were about to start the most fun / interesting part of any smax game: a succesfull large scale invasion. And just then you give up ?

you HAVE to include the clea feature right?

Only if you think the unit will live longer than +/- 10 turns (upgrading counts as dying here) and you don't need the 2 special slots for something else. So, if you intend to upgrade your cheap units right away, don't put clean on the cheap ones. If you need some suicide jets / copters, don't put clean on them. As general advice : put "trained" on the cheap units, but not on the units you upgrade to. The morale upgrade is given when a unit is built and caries over when it is upgraded. Upgrading to a "trained" units doesn't give the morale upgrade.

And you should take advantage of the 2 special slots right?

If they are usefull. Don't make the unit more expensive just because you have "a slot left".

And choppers have stronger attacks than needle jets? I didn't know that.

No, but choppers don't end their turn after an attack. If you attack with a needlejet, you can't do anything with it anymore this turn. If you have a chopper in a base and the enemy walks up to it, you can kill 6 or 7 of his units with 1 copter (if the copter doesn't die ofcourse). This is a very big advantage, but copters do have a few disadvantages too (ie: they can be killed by normal ground units)

And probe ships. I tried to use them and even built ones with armour (over 10 turns each) but they always get sunk before they reach the enemy base. They always bump into an enemy sea former or something and the enemy takes it out.

Kill all units in the way before moving in the foil:
Preparation turn:
=> Move the probe foils so they can just reach the base (ie: with the last movement point). Don't come closer.
Next turn (= attack turn):
=> Move a few penetrators over there, kill all the sea formers / sea foils untill you are sure none are left
=> Move the probe foils into the base and do the sabotage / tech steal / $$ steal / ...



I think you'd learn a lot if you would upload a sav here of that game. I'm sure some of us here would be willing to give you turn-by-turn details about how to wipe out the gaians very quickly. It's really sad to see you quiting this game after all the advise you got here.

[BlackCat]

It's often the messy games that learns you new, so we are still curious

Choppers doesn't have stronger attack, but they can do it multiple times. Consider a enemy base with two AA units and 20 needles. Take out the defence with your own needles (or as I prefer, with missiles) - after that, two or three choppers can destroy what is left. Ok, it all depends upon range - if it's long, then you may want to use more choppers and have drop units ready to take the base so you can get your choppers into the newly conquererd base.

Be more careful with your probes - move them so they are at max range for probing. Don't think about getting away after the assault - one of the weird things about this game is that if they don't get caught, they return safely to the nearest base

WP ? Well, it depends. If you are on a small island I think it's crucial because it makes you able to raise land. I mighht not be the right to ask because I prefer 256x320 maps with lots of water and there you typically starts on a 4x4 island - that demands a lot of digging up

About your list of SP's, well don't cry if you don't get the ME - it's pretty worthless, but nice to have if you don't loose any other SP by getting it.

[Zoetrope]

A formidable opponent constitutes the best aspect of a contest. I retain fond memories of the more difficult games. To relive that, I would love to switch places with d=me.

The only times I've given up in SMAC/X were with a few very tough starts when I had tried everything in numerous restarts but always got crushed by turn 70. Even in those cases, I'd like to retry those situations now using some new ideas.

PLEASE, d=me, do publish your saved game.

[d=me]

I don't think that that save exists anymore. The auto save only goes back to 30 turns. If it was 100 the save should still be in there. I'll post this one if it gets too messy.

[Kataphraktoi]

Originally posted by Kataphraktoi
Ill edit in something coherent in the morning, when i can see straight again

Back on track...

Against the AI, your tactic might work-- Against a prepared human in a PBEM, a stack of marines in a ship are just looking to die if they spend any amount of time outside a base.

My modification on your tactic is to bring along a couple of sea colony pods and create a seabase where your troops end their turn. It eliminates self-destruct tactic tricks, provides a closer base for air support, means successful probeships remain closer, and means you can't lose your entire force as easily if you are discovered on the way in

You were just of great help in planning an attack im going to be doing. i was debating building a pod or not, and wrote it off as too expensive, and using AAA cruisers as the only protection. i didnt realize selfdestruct wont work on a base... and your right on closer air support, i was going to have a danged time bringing in air units...

Only if you think the unit will live longer than +/- 10 turns (upgrading counts as dying here) and you don't need the 2 special slots for something else. So, if you intend to upgrade your cheap units right away, don't put clean on the cheap ones. If you need some suicide jets / copters, don't put clean on them. As general advice : put "trained" on the cheap units, but not on the units you upgrade to. The morale upgrade is given when a unit is built and caries over when it is upgraded. Upgrading to a "trained" units doesn't give the morale upgrade.

I dont use it much, actually. its a pretty weak ability for the raise in cost, and by the time i am ready to build military i have enough spare minerals its no problem. i do upgrade formers to clean,though

[d=me]

On those island maps it is very hard to find suitable land for bases.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kataphraktoi


You were just of great help in planning an attack im going to be doing. i was debating building a pod or not, and wrote it off as too expensive, and using AAA cruisers as the only protection. i didnt realize selfdestruct wont work on a base... and your right on closer air support, i was going to have a danged time bringing in air units...

Glad to be of help!!.. It can be quite a shock for an opponent to SUDDENLY see a military stronghold right on his doorstep with say 10 choppers and a bunch of probeships. They look at their defenses and go " OHH CRAP"

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kirov


And just what do you do if your opponent has CBA?

Consider both MP and scenario with a tweaked AI.

Several possibilities ( I play MP and tweaked scenarios and do not assume I get the CBA). Any or all of these may work in combination




1. Ignore the CBA person and attack someone weaker. IN a MP game it hardly ever pays to take on an equal if your war of attrition could allow some lesser power to usurp you both. I have won several MP games by knowing whom NOT to attack. INstead of atatcking my main rival, I would solidify my borders on that side and roll the unprepared person on the other side. War is all about the benefits you get

2. Attack only infrastructure . . leave the strongholds alone but kill crawlers and formers-- Probesteal cash and to kill facilities. There are many many ways to hurt an opponent without taking his bases

However if your circumstances dictate that you must take bases in order to succeed

3. Nuke the CBA on the turn you do a silmultaneous drop attack throughout the now unprotected empire. Allow the carnage to ensue

4. Really make sure you get an few arty barrages through-- several if necessary to get defenders down to 50% health--

5. Use amphibious attacks from nearby seabases. This is actually one of your best options if an opponent has ports.

6. Probe-- mindcontroll a key base-- I have gotten quite an edge by stealing a base with a fair bit of military intact-- JUst remember that you betetr have lots of probe defenses or it might just get stolen right back

7. Attrition-- Sometimes a base is in the way and it takes Four choppers to kill that stubborn elite AA unit and there is no other way. THis is not recommended unless you have minerals and units to burn . .. Sometimes you do !! The OP had way too many planes IMHO ( with clean on them too arrgghhh) and it would have served him well to sacrifice a few for a key objective


There may be circumstances where you can do none of the above, but IMHO that is probably a game you are probably going to lose. If you cannot outgrow/outtech an opponent if you go non-military AND they beat you to the CBA AND they would have adequate defenses regardless where you try to hit them . . . . that might be a game you lose.

When I win MP games, there were always opportunities where I could be successful in an attack. I may not attck but that s a function of the cost

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Commy
Never underestimate the power of amphibious units...your airforce may not be able to attack a base outright, but it can easily pave the way for a few transports...just pop a needlejet over any transport, and chances are your marines will easily make it to their target...

Comm jammers defeat mobile units, and AAA tracking defeats air power, but there is no defense against infantry when attacking a base...even with perimeter defenses and sensors, a little artillerly, a few missiles, or simply better weaponry can easily give you the advantage...the problem with infantry units is that its hard to reach an enemy base without getting wiped out...this isn't as much a problem with marine units as long as you keep them protected...

There is a defense against amphibious attack ( apart from aggressive patrolling) and that is the defensive land raise. I have come to quite like this tactic against seabourne enemies and it has several possibilities

1. Raising a peninsula in a key place so that seabourne troops have an obstacle to go around. This allows focssed patrolling and a killing zone for the approaching units. This can be hard to do if your enemy is near since his airpower will likely be plinking your formers


2. The very simple turn a port into an inland city trick. There are times when available formers can accomplish this in a single turn. ( Done right, it may impact all the bases in range of the strike force) Now non-elite infantry have to spend a turn ashore before attacking. The additional altitude also helps your arty if you have defensive arty in your bases that will duel attacking ships. Taken to an extreme, your base could start the turn as a port and end it 3 tiles inland.

I actually used this tactic extensively in one game where my opponent had the HSA and MCC and was building lots of probecruisers. I saw that and simply raised every base except a selected few until they were no longer ports. My only ports were very heavily defended and unapproachable. I essentially surrendered the sea to my opponent andjust created more land


3. Killing the opposing forces with a land raise-- THis is VERY difficult to accomplish since an enemy must accomodate you by placing his forces appropriately. The AI WILL be this helpful but they are generally easier to kill other ways.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by d=me
On those island maps it is very hard to find suitable land for bases.

That is why you need WP - you build your own continent and clear suitable base spots.

There is a nice example of this in post #45 here :

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=131768&perpage=30&pagenumber=2

admitted - the first 50 rounds are quite easy