It's getting ridiculous...one month, two month, three month, four...

[Solver]

Sorry Dan but I'm calling BS. You responded originally yes, but not since Asher's offer of help. And responding to that does not require technical expertise.

As to your second point I have to say that the same old tired lines about staff difficulties count for far less when you've got an offer of help you've ignored in this very thread!

You're as pretentious as ever, so I have to call BS as well. Doesn't it occur to you that any offers for help are typically not responded to in public, because that's a private process? Discussion on whether to accept an offer happens in private. Discussing some details with the person offering help happens in private. There's never more of a public response than "check your PMs", if that. So you have no way of knowing whether an offer is being ignored or not. I'm sure that believing that admins read an offer of help and outright ignore it suits your current beliefs about the site better.

And to Solver I call the same BS. Keeping people in the loop with what is going on need not take away from scarce technical expertise. We all know that Locutus and Gramphos are the only people with any real skill in that area and there are plenty of other staff members that can oblige on the comms side.

Your omniscience fails again. Gramphos definitely does the vast majority of the work, but person with the next largest amount of tech work done recently is probably snoopy. Locutus was actually away for a few months, snoopy has been helping a lot for a long time and contributed heavily to the vB3 upgrade. Tech work has also been done by some other people on site features that aren't publicly available yet but that we're working on as part of a larger redesign. So your assertion that it's only Gramphos and Locutus is outright wrong.

Doing communication in this area for others is difficult. Say, Dan does most of the PR and public announcement stuff but he doesn't have the technical knowledge to make an announcement about what's going on. Same goes for several other people on the staff.

[ZEE]

i have generally just accepted whatever is going on around here tech wise. If the site is working great, if not i just go to ForumWarz or wherever and come back when Poly is fixed.

Im guessing the bottom dollar here is genuinely low to keep the server and host costs running, and I know Dan has an IRL job outside Poly. So this site will not "die" in that regard, perhaps a few members leaving but the site is p much set in stone IMO.

[DanQ]

I don't believe a weekly update to the community on technical matters is worthwhile either. Generally speaking, I too acknowledge that we could be doing better still when it comes to updates on that nature and otherwise. Unfortunately, there is nothing to update on this matter -- the status quo remains. I can understand the position that such a communication in and of itself could be regarded as better than 'nothing'... is that what some of you are getting at, at least in part?

I regret not acknowledging Asher's offer of assistance before now, so I will take this opportunity to do so. Towards what Solver has said, Asher: I have sent you a PM on this with more detail.

To say that staff shortages in recent years are "evidence of poor management and leadership" is an oversimplification of the situation, and moreover misleading. Could management and leadership have been improved in the past? Improved now? Certainly, but that does not make them "poor" nor do I believe that to be the case here. What are needed are interested, available, and trustworthy individuals over an extended period of time to assist in the operations of Apolyton CS. Skills and/or experience to go with those qualities are typically a bonus and can othrewise be gained through such volunteerism; in some instances, though, they are required beforehand... particularly when it comes to technical matters.

[DrSpike]

You're as pretentious as ever, so I have to call BS as well. Doesn't it occur to you that any offers for help are typically not responded to in public, because that's a private process? Discussion on whether to accept an offer happens in private. Discussing some details with the person offering help happens in private. There's never more of a public response than "check your PMs", if that. So you have no way of knowing whether an offer is being ignored or not. I'm sure that believing that admins read an offer of help and outright ignore it suits your current beliefs about the site better.

And if Asher's offer is being discussed with him in private you don't think it would be worth one line in this thread to say so? Refusing to even publicly acknowledge the offer is rather shortsighted from a comms perspective, because it leaves everyone thinking it has been ignored. What, pray, do you think that might do to other people thinking of volunteering? This ain't rocket science.

Your omniscience fails again. Gramphos definitely does the vast majority of the work, but person with the next largest amount of tech work done recently is probably snoopy. Locutus was actually away for a few months, snoopy has been helping a lot for a long time and contributed heavily to the vB3 upgrade. Tech work has also been done by some other people on site features that aren't publicly available yet but that we're working on as part of a larger redesign. So your assertion that it's only Gramphos and Locutus is outright wrong.

I shouldn't have left Snoopy off - he has done a lot, and not just technical. I hope he'll forgive me.

Doing communication in this area for others is difficult. Say, Dan does most of the PR and public announcement stuff but he doesn't have the technical knowledge to make an announcement about what's going on. Same goes for several other people on the staff.

It's not the technicality that matters - I think you're just not getting this. Also, I seem to recall you taking on the comms role. I wonder what happened to that........

[DanQ]

Im guessing the bottom dollar here is genuinely low to keep the server and host costs running, and I know Dan has an IRL job outside Poly.

Apolyton's annual operating costs run in the thousands of dollars. My RL job is part-time for less than half of the year and otherwise unpredictable.

[DrSpike]

To say that staff shortages in recent years are "evidence of poor management and leadership" is an oversimplification of the situation, and moreover misleading. Could management and leadership have been improved in the past? Improved now? Certainly, but that does not make them "poor" nor do I believe that to be the case here. What are needed are interested, available, and trustworthy individuals over an extended period of time to assist in the operations of Apolyton CS. Skills and/or experience to go with those qualities are typically a bonus and can othrewise be gained through such volunteerism; in some instances, though, they are required beforehand... particularly when it comes to technical matters.

Well I'm afraid I think it is a management mistake not to even acknowledge offers of help (from a qualified person as well) when you are clearly under the cosh staff wise.

I think it is a mistake not to realise that good comms and setting out clear goals for the site are both crucial to generating volunteers over the medium term if you having problem in the short term (which we've been in for the last 2 years or so)

I think it is a mistake for the site owner not to take the lead in these matters and dedicate some of his time (maybe taking a small amount from other things like 'Polycast which will die or have to switch to CFCcast when 'Poly dies) to making sure they are in hand, either personallly or through others.

[Solver]

And if Asher's offer is being discussed with him in private you don't think it would be worth one line in this thread to say so? Refusing to even publicly acknowledge the offer is rather shortsighted from a comms perspective, because it leaves everyone thinking it has been ignored. What, pray, do you think that might do to other people thinking of volunteering? This ain't rocket science.

I'd still think that it would only be viewed by ignoring by pessimistic people who want to see doom and gloom. And yeah, I think that only saying something publicly after a person is accepted into staff is a good way to do things, although I do reserve the right to be wrong.

It's not the technicality that matters - I think you're just not getting this. Also, I seem to recall you taking on the comms role. I wonder what happened to that........

Again, I acknowledge and admit that there isn't as much communication as there should be, but I am not presently posting any updates because I am not sure as to what I can say. We have had an overall redesign plan for a while (it again shows how little you know when you mention the need for goals, we have all of that well spelled out) and we're working on the new/renewed site areas, but there's not a lot to say about that.

Let me also note that nobody has outlawed asking questions yet. If there's such a deficiency in communication, why aren't you asking specific questions about what you want to know? You're just complaining. I am normally not annoyed by your criticism, and think you usually have fair points to make, but this time it seems to me that you're assuming a whole lot of things that you do not know.

[DrSpike]

I'd still think that it would only be viewed by ignoring by pessimistic people who want to see doom and gloom. And yeah, I think that only saying something publicly after a person is accepted into staff is a good way to do things, although I do reserve the right to be wrong.

Yup, you are. It was unambiguously a mistake not to even acknowledge the offer, and Dan as much as admitted that above.

Again, I acknowledge and admit that there isn't as much communication as there should be, but I am not presently posting any updates because I am not sure as to what I can say. We have had an overall redesign plan for a while (it again shows how little you know when you mention the need for goals, we have all of that well spelled out) and we're working on the new/renewed site areas, but there's not a lot to say about that.

Really? I don't see a plan on the front page, or even past that. Out of sight out of mind. Good comms isn't about just having the plans, it's about, well, communicating them.

[Solver]

Communication isn't about making everything public. I don't see why our plans should be public. If we're talking site redesign, that includes things that we're actively working on but that aren't ready to be shown yet, as well as things that are long-term ideas on which little implementation work has been done. I'm not in favour of announcing stuff that is still a ways off. We've mentioned, for instance, that we're working on improving our download system. You can already see some of that now but we want to make it more mature and suitable for gaming needs, but I don't think we should be saying too much about our ideas that haven't been done yet. You'll see how all that develops when it develops.

[DanQ]

Well I'm afraid I think it is a management mistake not to even acknowledge offers of help (from a qualified person as well) when you are clearly under the cosh staff wise.

I just publicly acknowledged the offer and admitted that I should have before now. This point has been addressed.

I think it is a mistake for the site owner not to take the lead in these matters and dedicate some of his time... to making sure they are in hand, either personallly or through others.

Not every effort that I have and continue to make in the management of Apolyton is made public. You assume that I have not taken lead continually -- personally and/or through delegation -- dedicated part of my time to staffing matters, and you are incorrect.

Ask pointed, relevant questions in a civil manner, constructively criticize, make reasonable suggestions... you have done and continue to do this at times. That is helpful. But coming to and stating such black and white conclusions... that is not.

[Grandpa Troll]

Grandpa Troll weighs in

Ok, Im a long time member and a very tech UNSAVVY individual.

This I know

1) Poly has been my home since 2000, through thick and thin, as Staff and as mere miscreant

2) I am glad to see thus far what has been done

3) Volunteerism by qualified folks has created somewhat of a slowdown perhaps in "Public Appearance" of newer implementations

4) I am not exactly what people want that we dont have? (that is what is critical)

5) I am appreciative of te Staff and Admin/ownership for even having this site

I do see many who are abrasive and insulting in addressing not only the issues but those in charge of which perplexes me?

Im not perfect and yes myself have gotten into it with some in authority here, but blame astate of being that greatly altered my senses, i.e. pain, narcotics, delussional paranoia, plus i can be a real D!ck at times of which i do apologize to all for my unacceptable behavior.

I just wish we could be less confrontational in dealing with the issues at hand.

Ok, just sharing a small point of view, cant we all just get along and either accept what it is or not but be civil in the process?

Thanks

Brother Bruce

[xmen510]

Very good post GT. Some of the attitude around here really perplexes me, they should be thankful that they Admins are even providing this site for our enjoyment.

If they really can't stand it, hen they can go elsewhere instead of acting like spoiled 5yr olds (IMHO of course).

[DrSpike]

Communication isn't about making everything public. I don't see why our plans should be public. If we're talking site redesign, that includes things that we're actively working on but that aren't ready to be shown yet, as well as things that are long-term ideas on which little implementation work has been done. I'm not in favour of announcing stuff that is still a ways off. We've mentioned, for instance, that we're working on improving our download system. You can already see some of that now but we want to make it more mature and suitable for gaming needs, but I don't think we should be saying too much about our ideas that haven't been done yet. You'll see how all that develops when it develops.

Solver you're still missing the point - of course there are things you won't make public! I'm not going to belabour this (or post on this issue again) because it's clear my feedback isn't wanted in this instance, but for the sake of the site and my long history of posting here:

1) The site is struggling to get volunteers, particularly technically minded ones. We all understand this is difficult. If you get such an offer the response should be partly private (negotiations with the individual) and partly public (to show appreciation for the offer as is polite and show others that might want to volunteer that their offer will be taken seriously). I think we've already agreed I'm right on this, and the staff made a mistake in this area. Let's learn from that and make the comms better next time.

2) On plans etc. There were a few threads a while back where I was pushing the staff on this, and for a while it was better. We understand that getting volunteers is hard, but you can't just expect them to come from nowhere and offer help. You have to create the conditions where people want to volunteer. And being clear about plans etc and having good comms (note this does not mean posting all the details of all fledgling ideas etc!) is a crucial element of that. This is something I feel the site has consistently underperformed on, and it reinforces the problems that the site is having in a way that the administration (from this thread and others) does not appear to recognise. Hence I am trying again to make it clearer. If that makes me a pretentious overreacting complainer (please note that whilst I have criticised I have not made personal remarks about staff members - I don't see what that accomplishes, in either direction) then so be it.

[Bloody Monk]

What my favorite cousin Bruce said!!

I've been coming around here since it was the Greek site. Lotsa changes over the years...but always my Civ home. It's not perfect now, but will get better. Soon, I hope, but delay is not for the lack of anyone concerned doing their best. We're all getting frustrated, but it seems to me that it's best to cultivate patience, positivity and support.

OTOH, if some of you just have to squawk...go ahead; at least you are building traffic.

Monk

[TCO]

edited by ming

Sleep it off TCO...