Baseball is Here!! MLB 2012!!!!

[-Jrabbit]

It's kind of the reason sabermetrics people don't use BA. They use OBP. It's not a BA replacement, it is just a good way to measure who gets on base better.

Well, duh. I was calculating and using OB pct to evaluate players for APBA baseball back in the 70s. It is not exactly rocket science to figure out that it's a superior view of player value.

OTOH, I don't think you've made a good case for discarding the RBI as a useful stat. "Less correlatively useful than OBP" does not equal "useless," and it doesn't pass the sniff test as well as the BA-vs-OB progression. Just one guy's opinion.

I mean why don't you go off on sabermetrics guys for not developing a "real W-L" stat?

Uh, because we weren't talking about that?

[Imran Siddiqui]

All you sabermetric folks are always obsessive about balancing out various factors like different parks, etc. Do you all do that with fielding? Center field seems to be quite a different position then third base.

Uh yeah. It is MUCH more difficult to play CF than 3B and they save more runs (IIRC, CF is the most difficult defensive position to play followed by SS).

[Imran Siddiqui]

OTOH, I don't think you've made a good case for discarding the RBI as a useful stat. "Less correlatively useful than OBP" does not equal "useless," and it doesn't pass the sniff test as well as the BA-vs-OB progression. Just one guy's opinion.

How about it tells you just about very little about the player himself but rather more about his teammates on base abilities .

Uh, because we weren't talking about that?

Well if you want the sabermetricians to make better stats for relative useless stats, why not do it for them all

[SlowwHand]

Uh yeah. It is MUCH more difficult to play CF than 3B and they save more runs (IIRC, CF is the most difficult defensive position to play followed by SS).

I don't particularly agree that CF is the most difficult position. If we discount catcher (the QB of baseball), then SS would be my next choice.

[SlowwHand]

Who should win AL MVP?

Spoiler:

80% Miguel Cabrera
20% Mike Trout

Total votes: 101,538

http://espn.go.com/

[Fistandantilus]

I don't particularly agree that CF is the most difficult position. If we discount catcher (the QB of baseball), then SS would be my next choice.

I also have a very hard time believing CF is more difficult to play than MI.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Someone on another thread put it like this: Cabrera had a great season and accomplished a statistical rarity, while Trout had one of the top 25 seasons in baseball history (yes, based on WAR).

[SlowwHand]

Really? There have been 15 Triple Crown winners. 15 if you count people twice that won it twice, otherwise, even less have done it.

Year Lg Player Team/(BA, HR, RBI)
1967 AL Carl Yastrzemski BOS .326, 44 HR, 121 RBI
1966 AL Frank Robinson BAL .316, 49 HR, 122 RBI
1956 AL Mickey Mantle NYY .353, 52 HR, 130 RBI
1947 AL Ted Williams BOS .343, 32 HR, 114 RBI
1942 AL Ted Williams BOS .356, 36 HR, 137 RBI
1937 NL Joe Medwick STL .374, 31 HR, 154 RBI
1934 AL Lou Gehrig NYY .363, 49 HR, 165 RBI
1933 AL Jimmie Foxx PHA .356, 48 HR, 163 RBI
1933 NL Chuck Klein PHI .368, 28 HR, 120 RBI
1925 NL Rogers Hornsby STL .403, 39 HR, 143 RBI
1922 NL Rogers Hornsby STL .401, 42 HR, 152 RBI
1909 AL Ty Cobb DET .377, 9 HR, 107 RBI
1901 AL Nap Lajoie PHA .426, 14 HR, 125 RBI
1887 AA Tip O'Neill STL .435, 14 HR, 123 RBI
1878 NL Paul Hines PRO .358, 4 HR, 50 RBI

http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/triple_crowns.shtml

[rah]

As far as I'm concerned even BA can be affected by the people in front of you, so OB would be too.
A person that has guys on base in front of him more often that can distract a pitcher or makes him pitch out of the stretch can benefit.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Really? There have been 15 Triple Crown winners. 15 if you count people twice that won it twice, otherwise, even less have done it.



http://www.baseball-reference.com/aw...e_crowns.shtml

What exactly do you think "statistical rarity" means? Doesn't make it the "greatest seasons of all time".

I mean Babe Ruth never won the Triple Crown, but I don't know how one can't argue that his 1920 or 1923 season are both in the Top 5 offensive seasons of all time? And they are better than the Triple Crown seasons.

[Ben Kenobi]

I'd go with the triple crown. Yaz, the last winner, is 73. It's something I've never seen before!

As for defense, 3B >> CF. Third base is the fourth most difficult defensive position (after C, SS, 2B). 3B is more difficult than CF.

[Jaguar]

Imran is right, and you plebs are not.

[Ben Kenobi]

Imran is right, and you plebs are not.

It's only the third time that a middle infielder (3B, SS, 2B), has won the triple crown. The last two were stiffs - Lajoie and Hornsby. It would be criminal to take MVP away from Cabrera.

[Imran Siddiqui]

How in the world is 3B now being considered a MIDDLE infielder?!

[snoopy369]

Football is far more team related, as Payton couldn't have done anything with a great line and the great line wouldn't have mattered without Payton's rushing (this does, btw, come into play in, say, comparing the career of Emmitt Smith to Barry Sanders). In baseball you can isolate individual performance. There is a reason that RBI has become just about completely devalued in sabermetric circles - because it tells you far more about the people getting On Base before you than it does about how good of a hitter you are (remember OBP has become very much elevated as a stat in recent years - esp if you want to pick a stat the correlates with runs).

You are entirely, 100% missing the point here. The point of sabermetrics is to determine who IS a better player, NOT who had a better season or any other 'past' detail. It is, as with most statistics, to determine what is likely to happen in the future and/or in an isolated situation. Who would be better isolated from all other details, if you constructed a team that doesn't exist, would you draft first? Trout, sure, no argument here. Better fielder, as good at getting on base, great speed, enough power.

But the 2012 MVP is entirely about who had the better season in 2012 and was more valuable to his team in 2012, not about who is individually the better player. RBIs are absolutely relevant - again, in large part they are what everything is about. You don't win without RBIs. Same with 'clutch'. Sure, 'clutch' isn't useful for determining future performance; 100% agree with you there. But if somebody repeatedly _did_ come through in the clutch, you can't argue that player was not 'clutch' in those (past, occurred) situations, can you? Cabrera came through repeatedly with runners on base, and that is shown in the RBI total.

Guy, I'd also take issue with your statement that it doesn't matter that he got hot in September and Trout faded. It absolutely does. Sure, wins are the same; but what an MVP is, beyond stats, is someone who leads his team to win the pennant, which is the ultimate goal of the regular season. Both Cabrera and Trout were in the same situation in late August; their team a bit out of a playoff spot, needing a late surge to get in. Cabrera gave that late surge, Trout didn't. That, even more than the exact stats, is why I think he should be MVP and not Trout.