NFL Football - 2012 Season Thread

[snoopy369]

I don't think there's anything wrong with arguing Luck should be RotY, but I think RG3 has a solid argument for it as well. Both teams made the playoffs, both largely due to their quarterback. RG3 had more value outside of the passing game (ie, running), and was a pretty competent passer as well. Luck was playing for the University of Florida this year apparently, but I don't think it's entirely fair to judge solely on rate stats and 100% ignore volume - among other things, his rate stats were undoubtedly depressed by playing in a pass-only offense.

That said, accusing voters (in three different polls) of (reverse) racism is nonsensical. What evidence do you have, other than your opinion and interpretation of the statistics? Every voter saw the same statistics, and some of them came away with a different opinion. Clearly some agreed with you, as Luck didn't get zero votes. But just stating 'they didn't agree with me so they're racist' is Al Sharpton level idiotic.

[Tuberski]

The only point that BK should have made wrt Luck, is exactly what MtG said, The Colts were one dimensional and managed to win 11 games with Luck's arm alone(offensively).

Griffin and Russell both had very good running games to take some of the pressure off of them.

All that being said, I'm okay with Griffin winning the award.

Luck's team also won 9 more games than the previous year, as opposed to 5 and 4 for Griffin and Russell.

ACK!

[snoopy369]

Luck doesn't get credit for the Colts sucking the year before. The fact that they had Kerry Collins at QB at one point is responsible for that.

But yes, there's certainly an argument for it. There's also arguments against it.

[Imran Siddiqui]

The only point that BK should have made wrt Luck, is exactly what MtG said, The Colts were one dimensional and managed to win 11 games with Luck's arm alone(offensively).

Ben never makes the intelligent argument when he could make the idiotic one instead.

One does have to wonder if Guy is correct, and its just performance art.

[Tuberski]

Ben never makes the intelligent argument when he could make the idiotic one instead.

One does have to wonder if Guy is correct, and its just performance art.

I don't wonder, I know that it's not.

ACK!

[MichaeltheGreat]

Ben never makes the intelligent argument when he could make the idiotic one instead.

One does have to wonder if Guy is correct, and its just performance art.

Well, Ben can take comfort in one thing: Luck is better than Tebow ever was.

[Berzerker]

You want to ignore the fact that he finished 26th in passer rating vs 2nd by Griffin...

wow

that one stands out

and is it true Ray Lewis was charged with a double murder? I thought he was a witness who refused to help initially

I could google that, I will

[-Jrabbit]

I believe "involved in a double homicide" is all that's documented. It was Lewis and his posse, outside a bar, and two men ended up dead.

The smoking guns that indicate *something* was covered up:

--Lewis was seen wearing a white suit at the bar. That suit was suddenly "missing" and has never been seen again. Odd.
--The murder weapon (a knife) had "no DNA evidence" on it. Curious, that.
--Lewis admitted lying to police, making him a perjurer. Yet prosecutors let him plead down in exchange for his testimony against his posse members. The testimony of an admitted liar is the very definition of "reasonable doubt," so it's no surprise that Lewis' two friends walked away unconvicted.

That's what I remember off the top of my head, Berz.

[Ben Kenobi]

ALMOST ALL THE EXPERTS DISAGREE WITH YOU... THE THREE ROOKIE AWARDS DISAGREE WITH YOU.

Yeah, and? Plenty of people disagree with me on most things. If I followed Poly's advice on life I'd be an atheist.

You want to key on just a few stats instead of viewing their seasons in total.

Umm? No. I'm the one arguing that he started all 16 games, and threw for a record number of yardage, threw for the most TDs, won the most games. As a rookie. All my arguments are based upon his total output.

Yours are based on rate stats. Rate stats are great, but they are misleading when comparing players with very different total output.

You want to ignore his 18 interceptions. You want to ignore the fact that he finished 26th in passer rating vs 2nd by Griffin...

You want to ignore 4345 a record number of yards for a rookie, and the fact that he carried his team to the playoffs without anyone else at QB - something Griffin cannot say.

It has nothing to do with skin color... Griffin was clearly better, as the experts agree.

Only if you believe rate stats are more important than cumulative stats. I don't. Rate stats are useful - when comparing similar players with similar output. They are misleading when comparing two very different players. Luck is not a similar player to RGIII. Anybody will tell you this. Luck is the far superior QB.

TYPICAL BEN... try to change the subject. We are talking about this year... not futures.

And I'm talking about the future. I notice no one is willing to take me up on that. I consider myself vindicated. Luck's the class of his draft.

[Ben Kenobi]

Speaking of yardage though, yards per attempt:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/pl...t/seasontype/2

Hey look, RGIII is #1 in the league!!

Let me ask you something. Who's more valuable, someone who produces twice as much, or someone who produces much less, but takes less average time to do his much lower output?

[Ben Kenobi]

Racking up yardage in a one-dimensional attack without regard for coughing up the ball doesn't come close to making a clear case for rookie of the year.

Worked ok for AP.

[Al B. Sure!]

It's funny how everyone else says Luck is pretty damn good, just not RG3 good but Ben takes it to a whole another level with "Luck is the far superior QB" as if there's this massive gulf between them.

[Al B. Sure!]

Worked ok for AP.

Wut?

AP had only 4 fumbles.

[Ben Kenobi]

I don't think there's anything wrong with arguing Luck should be RotY, but I think RG3 has a solid argument for it as well. Both teams made the playoffs, both largely due to their quarterback. RG3 had more value outside of the passing game (ie, running), and was a pretty competent passer as well. Luck was playing for the University of Florida this year apparently, but I don't think it's entirely fair to judge solely on rate stats and 100% ignore volume - among other things, his rate stats were undoubtedly depressed by playing in a pass-only offense.

That's the same argument I made previously to JR - further up in the thread when we discussed this previous. You throw for 600+ attempts - your rate stats are going to go down. Guaranteed. But it worked for Indy, so I don't see why Arians gets the credit, and Luck did not. Anybody who's worked in management understands this. Take someone with a high output and expand their hours - they aren't going to be able to maintain that rate over the greater number of hours. The key is to hit the sweet spot, lots of production and lots of hours.

That said, accusing voters (in three different polls) of (reverse) racism is nonsensical. What evidence do you have, other than your opinion and interpretation of the statistics?

Luck is compared vs Manning while RGIII is compared to Vick.

But just stating 'they didn't agree with me so they're racist' is Al Sharpton level idiotic.

Different standards! I know all about this, btw. There are different standards that people are compared with.

[Ben Kenobi]

Wut?

AP had only 4 fumbles.

Luck was 7th in yardage, RGIII was 22nd. So why should passer rating > yardage?

AP had only 4 fumbles.

He also racked up yardage in a one dimensional offense. We should ignore his output and say that Brandon Jacobs is the best RB this year because rate stats > output.