NHL Playoffs

[Ben Kenobi]

Joncha's comment about being a more levelheaded fan. Joncha is to you as I am to Asher. He's a Canuck fan. I was trying to compliment you.

[Flubber]

Bobby Lou has already left him in the dust. This says it all.

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Ya those extra wins and an almost equal number of extra losses-- wow

Luongo has always outpaced Kipper. He started 2 years behind, caught up and is now a full year ahead.

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Luongo made it to the NHL earlier (while Kipper did time in European leagues)-- I admit Luongo's wins lead but in other posts mocked wins as a main criteria for making the top 5 of all time. Remember the examples of Barrasso and Osgood?

Homer goggles. I could just as easily argue that Bobby Lou plays longer and people looking back at the game 20 years from now wonder how the comparison could even be made.


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Probably the reason why I said its reasonably likely that Luongo outpaces Kipper and almost as likely that Kipper does the converse-- you are funny--

Despite playing for the Panthers and Vancouver, is the second fastest to 300 wins in NHL history, behind Brodeur. That alone, notwithstanding his excellent sv pct, decent (and falling gaa, and 57 shutouts, makes him hall of fame material.

Hall of fame material ?? THats a far different test than being in the top 5 of all time!!


Also -- in how many games did Luongo get his 300 wins-- I think I miscopied some stats and Kipper has even fewer losses compared to Luongo than I first noted and Kipper is quite likely to get to 300 wins QUICKER

OH and also I noted that Luongo has a career 308-311-33 record (when you add back the OTLs as losses). Tell me where does Luongo rank on the fastest 300 losses !!!

If wins are your key criteria for greatness, LOSSES must equally be a consideration

[Asher]

So what you are saying is that the Flames in '04 was such a complete collection of suck that Kipper was godly in having them make the finals?

This is pretty much exactly what happened.

Look at the Flames pre and post Kipper trade.

For all your talk about how awesome Luongo is, he's never had a GAA approach Kipper's modern day NHL record in 03-04.

[Flubber]

Joncha's comment about being a more levelheaded fan. Joncha is to you as I am to Asher. He's a Canuck fan. I was trying to compliment you.

OH-- Almost all fans are more "levelheaded" than you and Asher-- You two like to go to the extreme rhetoric etc etc-- You are a bit worse than Asher in this regard ( I have never seen him assert Kipper as an all time great despite the fact that he has a better winning percentage, a Vezina and a deep playoff run)

[Flubber]

Yes. This is pretty much exactly what happened.

Look at the Flames pre and post Kipper trade.

IIRC we had Roman Turek and it wasn't pretty-- Kipper came in and claimed the # 1 job and then post lockout claimed a Vezina-- that year we won a LOT of 2-1 gemas lol

[Asher]

Flubber:

But if you want to compare lets compare Kipper and Luongo. I don't think Kipper is anywhere near the top 10 goalies of all time but he trails Luongo by only 32 wins (and 25 losses) and is a couple of years older. Luongo has a better career reg season sv % .919 to .913 but worse GAA 2.53 to 2.46

This isn't even that fair to Kipper. Luongo is younger but he's played a lot more NHL games.

Luongo's been a team's starter since 2000-01, with 672 GP (regular season), 308 of which were wins.

Kiprusoff didn't become a team's starter til 2003-04, with 528 GP (regular season), 276 of which were wins.

[Ben Kenobi]

Thats a far different test than being in the top 5 of all time!!

At present I have him ranked 18th all time. his career is over and done, he'll likely crack the top 5. I've said this about 178 times, but you keep misquoting me.

If wins are your key criteria for greatness, LOSSES must equally be a consideration

You don't get to 300 losses without being a pretty exceptional goaltender.

Also -- in how many games did Luongo get his 300 wins-- I think I miscopied some stats and Kipper has even fewer losses compared to Luongo than I first noted and Kipper is quite likely to get to 300 wins QUICKER

529 games.

Luongo has had 672 games. Earned his 300 win in game number 660.

Kipper might get there faster, but he's also older. So he will likely be capped around 350 win or so.

Bobby Lou has the potential to reach 450.

Kipper's career win percentage is .548

That's not bad for goalies where he's at. If he can get another season in, he'll get some consideration. If he drops off, he won't.

[Asher]

Luongo has always outpaced Kipper. He started 2 years behind, caught up and is now a full year ahead.

Again you triumphantly display either gross ignorance about hockey (Luongo's played in the NHL longer than Kipper with many more GP), or that you are a disingenuous bastard.

[Ben Kenobi]

For all your talk about how awesome Luongo is, he's never had a GAA approach Kipper's modern day NHL record in 03-04.

2.11 isn't an exceptional GAA? He destroyed the Canuck record.

[Ben Kenobi]

Again you triumphantly display either gross ignorance about hockey (Luongo's played in the NHL longer than Kipper with many more GP), or that you are a disingenuous bastard.

Age is a factor. Is Kipper a Dryden calibre goalie, with Dryden like 5 Stanley cups and an obscene + .700 win percentage? No. He's a 270 win goalie with a .545 win record. Not bad. Mike Luit is a comp at 290 and .520, and he's not in the Hall of Fame.

[Ben Kenobi]

I have never seen him assert Kipper as an all time great despite the fact that he has a better winning percentage, a Vezina and a deep playoff run.

Unless you consider 'all-time great' to be in the top 20 all time, then I've not said so either. All I said is that I have him in my personal list as 18th all time, the best Canuck who played most of his career for the team since Pavel.

[Asher]

2.11 isn't an exceptional GAA? He destroyed the Canuck record.

2.11 is a helluva lot higher than 1.69...

And unfortunately for you, goaltender talent is not measured with respect to Vancouver Canucks franchise records.

[Asher]

Age is a factor.

No, it really isn't. Kipper was benched as a backup when he was more than capable of being a starter for many years until he was traded to Calgary. That is outside his control and not a metric used to how good the goaltender is.

If you keep raving about how "quickly" Luongo got to 300 points, the way he got them is by playing games. The only fair comparison is to see at which point they reached the 300W mark based on GP, not when they were born.

[Asher]

Word has it Luongo's riding the pine to start this game. Schneider is in the starter's position at warmups.

TOP 5 GOALIE.

When you absolutely, positively have to win a game, what do you do?
1) Bench your starter, a TOP 5 GOALIE OF ALL TIME
2) Go with a rookie backup

I guess your assumptions in (1) must be vaulty when (2) is the choice made.

[Flubber]

You don't get to 300 losses without being a pretty exceptional goaltender.



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Ben I will always quote this accurately-- its gold