AHL- Apolyton Hockey League 10/11: Preseason

[notyoueither]

Who would you rather have on your team, Bob Probert or some random 20 goal scorer who is a candidate for the Lady Byng?

[Guynemer]

I'm a Red Wings fan. You must be familiar with their run of dominance over the past 20 years without ever even coming close to leading the league in penalty minutes, no?

[Guynemer]

Who would you rather have on your team, Bob Probert or some random 20 goal scorer who is a candidate for the Lady Byng?

The 20 goal scorer, every day of the week.

Frankly, I think players should get a minus when an opposing team scores while said player is in the penalty box.

[Guynemer]

The searchable stats on NHL.com only go back 12 seasons for this, but:

In the past 12 seasons, during which the Red Wings have been the dominant force in the NHL, not once did they finish in the top ten in total penalty minutes. In fact, in the past 12 seasons, only once did they not finish in the top ten in fewest penalty minutes.

[notyoueither]

You should ask Steve Yzerman his opinion.

If you ask Wayne Gretsky, he will tell you that Dave Semenko was a very large factor in his and the Oilers success in the '80s. There is no way the Oilers win their five cups without being one of the tougher teams of their time. Players like Semenko, McSorley, McClelland, Brown, etc. earned those cup rings. Not to mention what toughness and a mean streak added to the value of a player like Messier.

[Guynemer]

You can be tough without taking penalties. Datsyuk is regularly one of the Wings' leaders in hits, and yet he is a perennial Byng winner.

I'm pretty sure Steve Yzerman would rather have five skaters on the ice most of the time this season as opposed to the Bolts' performance last year.

[Guynemer]

Here are the teams with the fewest penalty minutes last season, listed with their final position in their conference:

1. Predators (7)
2. Red Wings (5)
3. Devils (2)
4. Sabres (3)
5. Blackhawks (2)
6. Wild (13)
7. Coyotes (4)
8. Canadiens (7T)
9. Capitals (1)
10. Islanders (13)


So that's eight for ten making the playoffs, including the Stanley Cup champs, as well as the President's Trophy winners.

I rest my case. For now. Maybe.

[notyoueither]

The searchable stats on NHL.com only go back 12 seasons for this, but:

In the past 12 seasons, during which the Red Wings have been the dominant force in the NHL, not once did they finish in the top ten in total penalty minutes. In fact, in the past 12 seasons, only once did they not finish in the top ten in fewest penalty minutes.

Yes, the Red Wings have built a good thing on the foundation of punishing teams on the power play. Some say that results in tougher teams laying off them for fear of the refs.

However, not every team does or needs to do it that way. In fact, most can't. There are only so many Fetisovs, Lidstroms, Yzermans, etc. to go around. BTW, the 07 Ducks that I mentioned earlier ran over the Red Wings in the conference final. That year toughness won. Toughness doesn't have to win every year to make it an important part of the game.

[Guynemer]

And, of course, in 09, the Wings beat the Ducks.

No, toughness doesn't have to win every year. Toughness is important. But penalty minutes do not measure toughness. They measure penalties: by definition, a negative for your team, putting your team at a disadvantage.

[notyoueither]

Here are the teams with the fewest penalty minutes last season, listed with their final position in their conference:

1. Predators (7)
2. Red Wings (5)
3. Devils (2)
4. Sabres (3)
5. Blackhawks (2)
6. Wild (13)
7. Coyotes (4)
8. Canadiens (7T)
9. Capitals (1)
10. Islanders (13)


So that's eight for ten making the playoffs, including the Stanley Cup champs, as well as the President's Trophy winners.

I rest my case. For now. Maybe.

I note that the conference winners were one from each of your lists.

[Guynemer]

And I note that the teams that had fewer penalty minutes, on average, had significantly more success than those teams that were penalized more.


Which makes sense, because they are penalties.

[notyoueither]

And, of course, in 09, the Wings beat the Ducks.

No, toughness doesn't have to win every year. Toughness is important. But penalty minutes do not measure toughness. They measure penalties: by definition, a negative for your team, putting your team at a disadvantage.

There are dumb penalties, yes, but the tougher players take a majority of their PiMs as a consequence of their style of play. Their style of play adds to their value to the teams that choose to employ them.

BTW, Yzerman gave Steve Downie a fairly substantial raise.

[Guynemer]

Clearly, you and I aren't going to come to an agreement about this. In regards to the hallowed AHL: how about we put it to a vote, instant run-off style?

Option 1: I don't want to count PIM
Option 2: I want PIM to be a negative
Option 3: I want PIM to be a positive


I'm #2, with #1 as second choice.

[snoopy369]

I don't think PIM can be a negative. Positive or nothing.

If I got a vote, I'd vote for not counting PIM.

[notyoueither]

Clearly, you and I aren't going to come to an agreement about this. In regards to the hallowed AHL: how about we put it to a vote, instant run-off style?

Option 1: I don't want to count PIM
Option 2: I want PIM to be a negative
Option 3: I want PIM to be a positive


I'm #2, with #1 as second choice.

I wasn't advocating adding PiMs to the AHL. I think part of the charm of the league is its simplicity. I'm in other leagues where I can excercise my fondness for aggressive players.

I am willing to discuss the importance of players to NHL teams who tend to rack up a lot of them.

I don't think option two is possible.