Fantasy Football Discussion Thread

[Al B. Sure!]

I'm saying McNabb has more touch than most Black QB's, but is still lacking when you name a comparable White QB.
How many Black QBs are in the HOF? Is there another besides Warren Moon?
So it's me that's racist? The HOF is racist? Do you think maybe it could be a fact, rather than racism?
Tebow is definitely in that mold, but he's not indicative of my point. Tebow should be Black.

Tebow should be Black

Really, Sloww, your average college QB is in this mold, to be honest. Like I said with the Temple example, our white QB's were like that.

Warren Moon being the only Black QB HOFer (he's actually not. Fritz Pollard played QB but this was before the modern game and he was still a scrambler) has more to do with the fact that, well, he was the first star Black QB to begin with. There were a few before him, sure, but he was the first one that really was THE guy on his team. Give it more time.

But there have been a few good ones... Randall Cunningham, Steve McNair, Donovan McNabb...

I think where racism comes into play is when college coaches decide to mold them a certain way... that's what makes someone like Byron Leftwich unique because he was a pocket passer who couldn't scramble for crap. I think most coaches see a Black QB and instantly think, I can make him scramble and give defenses another weapon to worry about! Let's have him do running drills instead of studying plays.

It's similar to how when a white HB shows up on campus or in the NFL, the instant thought is, tell him to bulk up so he can play fullback or turn into a linebacker or safety.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Is it a racist argument? Heck yes.

[SlowwHand]

But see, I don't agree with you. I don't think a coach, let's say college, recruits a player and tries to mold him into his type of QB. He recruits a player that fits his system.
I also don't agree about a universal style of play. In high schools and many colleges, the spread offense is being utilized. That's fine for the majority of the players that are going to end their playing days at that level; BUT, look at Sam Bradford. The only possible negative is that most of his snaps were from the shotgun formation in college. I like the shotgun formation as a change of pace. Having said that, it illustrates my previous point and how it doesn't transfer well, in isolated instances, to playing professionally. Bradford is going to have to adapt, the Rams aren't going to go mainly shotgun to accommodate Bradford.
He has "touch" though. We've kind of switched the direction of the discussion, which is fine, and probably better.

[Al B. Sure!]

I will say this back to the original McNabb thing... McNabb has one of the lowest Int % of any QB. Basically, if his passes are off target, they're REALLY off target (ie- straight to the dirt) so that DB's can't catch them. So, at the very least, you can never accuse McNabb of losing games for you, as much as Eagles fans have blamed him over the years. That shouldn't be a surprise considering that Reid-McNabb are the winning-est coach-QB combo ever, exceeding even Walsh-Montana.

Also, statistically, McNabb looks pretty impressive and honestly, has had a better career than McNair and Moon.

[Al B. Sure!]

Here's the top 10 for career Int % (Int/Attempts):

1. Aaron Rodgers (26) 1.8% 2005-2009 gnb
2. David Garrard (31) 2.0% 2002-2009 jax
3. Neil O'Donnell 2.1% 1991-2003 4TM
Donovan McNabb (33) 2.1% 1999-2009 phi
5. Jeff Garcia (39) 2.3% 1999-2009 5TM
Mark Brunell (39) 2.3% 1994-2009 4TM
Jason Campbell (28) 2.3% 2006-2009 was
Tom Brady (32) 2.3% 2000-2009 nwe
9. Philip Rivers (28) 2.4% 2004-2009 sdg
10. Kent Graham 2.5% 1992-2001 4TM


Interestingly enough, besides the kind of obvious guys who should be up there like Brady, Rivers, and Garcia... David Garrard and Jason Campbell make an appearance alongside McNabb.

[Al B. Sure!]

McNabb also has a 92-49-1 record which is fantastic and has a 216-100 TD-INT ratio (plus 28 rushing TD's).

Compare to:
Warren Moon: 102-101 record and 291-233 TD-INT ratio (plus 22 rushing TD's).
Steve McNair: 91-62 record and 174-119 TD-INT (plus 37 rushing TD's).
Randall Cunningham: 82-52-1 and 207-134 TD-INT (plus 35 rushing TD's).

And to be fair, some HoF'ers:
Troy Aikman: 94-71 record and 165-141 TD-INT (plus 9 rushing TD's)
Jim Kelly: 101-59 record and 237-175 TD-INT (plus 7 rushing TD's)
John Elway: 148-82-1 record and 300-226 TD-INT (plus 33 rushing TD's)


Really, to look at that, you'd have to say that Elway was the best, then McNabb, then Jim Kelly. Judging by win % and TD-INT's alone, Aikman was worse than McNair and Cunningham. The thing is that honestly, even with all the stats, really, the most important thing is winning games and scoring TD's... Aikman was just better at doing it when it mattered most than the rest of them.

[SlowwHand]

I'm saying McNabb has more touch than most Black QB's,

This is what I said.

[Al B. Sure!]

Troy Aikman isn't worthy of the Hall of Fame

[SlowwHand]

Aikman was deadly accurate. Certainly worthy.

[Al B. Sure!]

The more I think about it...

Troy Aikman: 94-71 record and 165-141 TD-INT (plus 9 rushing TD's)
Phil Simms: 95-64 record and 199-157 TD-INT (plus 6 rushing TD's)

Simms had a higher winning % and a much better TD-INT ratio.

Phil Simms won a Super Bowl! He actually won two, if you give him credit for leading the Giants to an 11-3 record before breaking his foot and Jeff Hostetler had to finish off the year.

Why is Phil Simms being a HoFer laughed at but Troy Aikman a shoe-in?

[Al B. Sure!]

I'm half trolling but honestly, why is that? Aikman only has 1 more SB ring over Simms... if we were to look at regular season performance, Simms was the better QB. He was more likely to win games and more likely to score (Aikman threw 165 TD's in, coincidentally, 165 regular season games; Simms threw 199 in 6 LESS games), with less relative INT's.

I'm not saying Simms belongs in the Hall or that Aikman doesn't but Aikman was a shoe-in and an obvious HoFer while NO ONE would ever consider Simms for the Hall. Why is that? You look at the facts and you'd have to say they're about the same with Aikman maybe getting an edge for the 1 or 2 more SB wins. It shouldn't be so extreme that Simms as a HoFer is absurd and Aikman is a shoe-in!

And consider that Aikman had Emmitt and Irving. Who did Simms have? Ottis Anderson at the end of his career when he was, honestly, downright ****ty, and Joe Morris who fell off a cliff early in his career. Who did Simms pass to? Mark Bavaro? A freaking TIGHT END!! Mark Ingram? Please. Compare Mark Ingram to Irving!



It just doesn't make any sense. If you ask me, Aikman should've been the type who takes 15-20 years to get voted in and Phil Simms should be the guy who perennially gets 1 vote for the Hall every year.

[SlowwHand]

How many Super Bowls did Aikman lead the Cowboys to over how many years and in what span were they won? You say 2 for Simms, but that isn't correct.
If you want to go there, why isn't Danny White in the HOF from the Cowboys? He owns most of the records on yardage and what not. I'll tell you why. The Cowboys didn't win Super Bowls.


EDIT: In fact, it was the abysmal play by the Cowboys under his term that the team was sold and Landry was fired. A lot of the local rationale was that Landry's doom was sealed by his insistence on using White, even though...

[Al B. Sure!]

Simms has 2 SB rings... He led the Giants to an 11-3 record with the playoffs assured before he broke his foot and Hostetler had to take over and win the Super Bowl. Fine, Simms actually won only one with himself physically playing in the SB itself...

Simms had a higher regular season winning % and TD-INT ratio than Aikman and did it with FAR less weapons. Again, Mark Ingram vs. Michael Irving? Holy ****! Ottis Anderson vs. Emmitt Smith?


I'm just saying why such a big difference? Why was Aikman a shoe-in and Simms being in the Hall is laughable? Like I said, realistically, you'd have to say they're about even with Aikman getting the edge for the SB's.

[MRT144]

How many Super Bowls did Aikman lead the Cowboys to over how many years and in what span were they won? You say 2 for Simms, but that isn't correct.
If you want to go there, why isn't Danny White in the HOF from the Cowboys? He owns most of the records on yardage and what not. I'll tell you why. The Cowboys didn't win Super Bowls.

Dan Marino should get the Pete Rose treatment.

[Al B. Sure!]

Dan Marino should get the Pete Rose treatment.

Marino gambled on NFL games?