NHL Contingency Schedule moves Phoenix to Winnipeg, Jets join NW division

[Ben Kenobi]

I remember you had this same problem when discussing high speed rail.

As opposed to what, faith?

High speed rail in the US is unviable, even in the Boston-Washington corridor. Why?

Geography, lack of population density, and low user demand. But of course, you ignore all the criticisms. It's a white elephant.

You want to talk demand, fine. Explain to me why Atlanta would be considered a poorer prospect than Houston, both of which have had prominent professional franchises? I actually think that Atlanta makes more sense than the other southern choices.

The question needs to be why is Atlanta failing to sell itself? Dallas has a successful team. Texas has shown itself more than supportive of Hockey. Atlanta has failed once already.

I'm looking at several factors.

1, geography. Do the divisions make sense and significantly cut down on travel, particularly for the NW teams which have the most amount of travel? Yes.

2, population. Are all of the prospective destinations sensible population wise?

3, support for nhl. Are all of the prospective destinations supportive of hockey? San Diego has a very good ball hockey squad. The vote against California stems from the lack of support in the state for professional sports teams. Then the question becomes San Diego vs Portland? I don't know. Portland might be a better choice, and I can certainly see Portland being substituted.

San Antonio, the debate there is that there are no other professional teams. No baseball, no football. Large stadium currently unused. Very supportive of the team they have. Good financials, best in the nation. Support for hockey? Never been tried. This is the biggest question for San Antonio. Better than Raleigh? Without a doubt.

[Kontiki]

As opposed to what, faith?

High speed rail in the US is unviable, even in the Boston-Washington corridor. Why?

Geography, lack of population density, and low user demand. But of course, you ignore all the criticisms. It's a white elephant.

This isn't the place for this debate, but you're doing a fine job of ascribing things to me that I never said while doing a complete 180 on what you said. Here's a link to refresh your and everyone else's memory.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?t=184919

As for the rest of this, you were throwing around population numbers as if they meant something, and that's what I was responding to. Several teams in very large markets are doing terribly. Here's the Forbes list showing operating incomes for 2007-2008. Clearly, there isn't that close a correlation between city size and viability.:

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/31/nhl08_NHL-Team-Valuations_Income.html

Geographic location means nothing in terms of viability and where teams should be. You might as well say teams should be in Kamloops, Victoria and Bellingham for what that's worth.

Oh, and San Diego has a good ball hockey team so they would support an NHL team? I can't even begin to explain how absurd that is.

[KrazyHorse]

In no particular order:

Quebec City
Hamilton/London/Toronto/Southern Ontario Pick 'Em
Portland
Seattle
Kansas City
Sacramento
Cleveland
Baltimore
Winnipeg (if they don't get the Coyotes back)

Obviously, some are more ideal than others, but all make much more geographic and climatological sense than the Deep South.

You've either never been to Baltimore or never watched a hockey game. I'm going to assume it's the former.

[Ben Kenobi]

Geographic location means nothing in terms of viability and where teams should be.

As a Toronto fan, I can understand this position. In fact, it's already been brought up that it is enormously unfair that western teams have eastern timezones, which is something that Toronto used to deal with until they finally shipped them out east. Now they need to do the same with Detroit.

I also think it's unfair to have teams travel from the west coast to the central time zone, hence why I think adding Winnipeg is a bad decision. Reduction of travel time is a benefit, and something that should be considered wrt to relocation.

You might as well say teams should be in Kamloops, Victoria and Bellingham for what that's worth.

You know, I am considering all three factors when making the suggestions. Is that too difficult to understand?

Oh, and San Diego has a good ball hockey team so they would support an NHL team? I can't even begin to explain how absurd that is.

More absurd than running a team in Phoenix just so you don't have to sell a money losing team to Hamilton?

[Ben Kenobi]

you're doing a fine job of ascribing things to me

Yeah you should probably stop putting words in my mouth if you don't like me putting words in yours.

that I never said while doing a complete 180 on what you said. Here's a link to refresh your and everyone else's memory.

It's called population density. Hello. The combination of geography + overall population, as compared with the situation in Japan. To have a profitable shinkansen has specific requirements, and the numbers just don't work in North America. You want to argue ridership, you are aware that trains are far less popular in the US than they are in Japan? It's not exactly a helpful argument.

I've not done a 180 at all. You are just lying and continue to lie. Please stop.

[Kontiki]

Wow - this just crossed into some bizzaro world. I'm not going to waste my time responding to you when you're now just completely inventing things.

[Asher]

Ben strikes again.

No inane topic is safe from the likes of his depravity. Major mental issues.

The ownership of this site really should do him a favour by permabanning him until he gets an all-clear from a psychiatrist, which we all know will never happen.

I think he seriously think people tell him he's mentally ill to troll him or insult him. He doesn't understand people are being very serious and he needs help.

[Wezil]

Ben thinks we're the ones who are cracked.


OT - Apparently the Cdn billionaire wants Winnipeg/Manitoba to cough up cash to make this happen. Looks like he'll make a good member of the NHL board with just the right "character" - lose other people's money and have them love you for it.

[Ben Kenobi]

The ownership of this site really should do him a favour by permabanning him until he gets an all-clear from a psychiatrist, which we all know will never happen.

What, that I've gotten the all-clear?

I think he seriously think people tell him he's mentally ill to troll him or insult him. He doesn't understand people are being very serious and he needs help.

Perhaps because the people responsible for those things find me quite healthy? Last I checked you weren't a psychiatrist. Do you just play one on the internet?

[Wezil]

Yeah baby!

The Phoenix Coyotes will stay put for at least one more season.

According to a report by TSN.ca, the NHL and the city of Glendale have hashed out the terms of a deal that will see the Phoenix suburb cover up to $25-million (all currency U.S.) of the team’s operating losses next season if the league cannot find a buyer for the financially crippled franchise. The league was forced to buy the Coyotes in a U.S. Bankruptcy Court auction last October for $140-million.

Last week, Glendale council gave city manager Ed Beasley the authority to work out an agreement with the NHL, which has poured more than $170-million into the team, with a limit of $25-million.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/coyotes-staying-put-in-phoenix/article1578079/

Just another couple years and I'm sure the Coyotes will be a money maker.

[Guynemer]

FFS

[Asher]

Glendale is the dumbest city ever.

[Wezil]

Last year we had a poster arguing Phoenix was a viable franchise.

Where did he go?

[Asher]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/winnipegs-hopes-for-nhl-team-alive-once-again/article1578321/

Winnipeg’s hopes for NHL team alive once again

Winnipeg’s hopes to get back in the NHL jumped again, as the league issued an ultimatum to the city of Glendale – find a buyer for the Phoenix Coyotes by Dec. 31 or we will sell them to someone we have waiting to buy and move the team.

The threat is included in the agreement between the NHL and the suburban Phoenix city in which the city agreed to pay up to $25-million (all currency U.S.) of the Coyotes’ operating losses for the 2010-11 season. That agreement was completed on Friday and a copy was obtained by The Globe and Mail.

There was no mention of the prospective buyer in the agreement but the only buyers the NHL has admitted speaking to in connection with the Coyotes, aside from Jerry Reinsdorf and the Ice Edge group who both want to keep the Coyotes in Arizona, are Canadian billionaire David Thomson and Mark Chipman, the CEO of True North Sports and Entertainment, who own and operate the MTS Centre in Winnipeg.

Neither Thomson nor Chipman has been willing to comment on buying the Coyotes and moving them back to their original NHL home. Scott Brown, a spokesman for True North, declined to comment on Saturday.

NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly, who negotiated the Glendale agreement with city manager Ed Beasley, did not respond to a request for comment.

However, a source familiar with the Glendale negotiations said the offer referred to in the agreement is from Thomson and Chipman.

The agreement,, says the NHL has “a bona-fide offer from a viable purchaser who would relocate the hockey team to another market for the 2010-11 season and contemplates that the owners [the NHL] would break even on their investment in the team through the end of the 2009-10 NHL season as well as the NHL potentially receiving a relocation fee.”

Last October, the NHL bought the Coyotes in a U.S. Bankruptcy Court auction for $140-million. The league also admitted to spending $20-million to cover the team’s losses for 2009-10 plus $10-million in the legal fight against BlackBerry billionaire Jim Balsillie’s attempt to buy the Coyotes and move them to Hamilton.

Even though Glendale officials managed to keep the team for at least one more season by agreeing to cover up to $25-million of next season’s losses, the clock is now ticking on a move to Winnipeg, which lost the team to Phoenix in 1996.

The agreement says the city has only until Dec. 31 to find a buyer willing to keep the team at Jobing.com Arena in Glendale. After that, the NHL says it can sell the team as it chooses. The only way Glendale can keep the team after Dec. 31 is if it finds a local buyer and the NHL has “not yet entered into an agreement to sell the team in a non-Glendale sale and the city identifies a prospective bona fide purchaser.”

Glendale’s obligations to pay the Coyotes’ losses begin July 1 and run until the team plays its last game of the 2010-11 season. The NHL also forced the city to sign an escrow agreement in which it will place $25-million in an escrow account with the Bank of America Merrill Lynch in Chicago or post a letter of credit so the league can begin drawing on it when the agreement begins.

According to the agreement, the NHL can also sell the team to a local buyer before Dec. 31 but it also has the “absolute right to approve or disapprove any prospective purchases of the team.”

However, the overall impression of the agreement is that the responsibility of finding a local buyer now rests with the city. At this point, it is not known if there are any substantial negotiations between Glendale officials and either Reinsdorf or Ice Edge. Before Glendale city council voted to give Beasley the power to commit to an agreement with the NHL, talks with both parties broke off.

Glendale hopes to cover its $25-million commitment by creating a special taxing district around Jobing.com Arena and through parking revenue. However, the agreement says if these efforts do not produce the necessary funds the city is responsible to make up the difference.

This could cause problems with the Goldwater Institute, a conservative watchdog group that has already said it plans to take the city to court over the deal once it is placed in writing. Arizona laws prohibit excessive public subsidies to private business and Goldwater lawyers have already said they believe it is illegal for a city council to give an employee the power to sign a binding agreement without a vote of approval.

The agreement recognizes the threat of the Goldwater Institute. One clause states that if any part of the deal is deemed illegal, it can be severed with the rest of the deal staying intact. Or the league and the city can negotiate a modification to the deal.

[notyoueither]

Last year we had a poster arguing Phoenix was a viable franchise.

Where did he go?

Do you mean me? I'm still here.

I do think Pheonix could do OK. Nashville is breaking even.