Rugby - Six Nations, S14, Lions, Can't Wait

[Havak]

And it has to be said not hugely different from six teams in a twelve team competition being in contention in the last round.

What holds Super 14 back most for me is the seven sides not in contention - no relegation and no incentive to perform on the pitch if the first half dozen fixtures go against you. Admittedly Bristol made that part of the premiership rather boring this season too - but European places kept nearly every other Premiership side trying to round 22.

So final number one tomorrow, followed a week later by something S14 simply can't compete with for scale - the European cup. I know which sides you will be cheering for I think?

A quick word on Cozza - when he joined us in 1997 as a fresh faced 24 year old for Brizzol Deano was on the slide (having fallen out big time with the delicate soul that was Bob Dwyer). A young Irish lad called Eric Miller was being touted as the next Deano. Within a dozen games Corry had usurped him to the extent he left for Leinster at the end of that season. Corry exploded onto the Tigers scene. If only Dalyglo had not been such a tireless self promoter Martin would have earned far more England caps than he did - in many ways he was the better back row forward for me. Certainly more humble.

[Havak]

With Castro injured young Cole comes onto the bench for us - a future England prop.

Fingers crossed we can spoil Catt's retirement.

After the game:

A tense game though not a great showcase. For only the second time under this silly system England has legitimate Champions - the League Champions have become the Premiership Champions today.

[finbar]

The best that can be said about the game is that the best team in the comp ended up winning the title. And I suppose that's the most important thing. Irish were more competitive than I thought they would be, and Leicester were oddly out-of-synch. Oh, and Peter Hewat underlined why he didn't make it any further in Australian rugby with his idiotic chip through straight to Hamilton when Irish were on the rampage.

No Australian teams in the S14 finals. Unsurprising. The Reds have been destroyed by injury. The Farce's very potent backline is undermined by some very ordinary forwards, though they should do better than they have. I suspect there are still internal issues with John Mitchell and his ugly personality. The Brumbies suffered for too long throughout the season with sub-standard halves, though next season, with Giteau and Valentine on board, things could be very very different.

The Waratahs criminally wasted an entire season. They have a quality backline and a good forwards, even after losing the likes of Vickerman and Elsom. Last season, under Ewen McKenzie, they wasted half the season playing defensive, kicking rugby with the backs rarely seeing the ball. Midway through, someone decided to reverse the tactics. They made the final. This season, under Chris Hickey, more defensive, kicking rugby - including very bad kicking - with the backs catching pneumonia. And they persisted till the third last round, when someone decided, again, to reverse the tactics. They became the first Australian team ever to win all three matches in Bokland. Go figure.

Oh, and re Jordan Crane. He's a very very hard worker. What he lacks is any sort of dynamism. I'm no great fan of Nick Easter at Test level, but I have to say that, at least, he's more inventive than Crane.

[Havak]

The big tip for number 8 is actually Dayglo's replacement at Wasps - but the young mans name always escapes me!

I take on board what you say about Crane - but a crucial difference for me is Crane never has games where he looks like he is stuffed full of Xmas pud and too lethargic to be interested. Easter does have such games for England. Easter for Quins interestingly almost always looks more dynamic than the same man for England - it must be to do with how the sides are playing. Quins play the game at pace and have good half backs - maybe that's it?

Cipriani is whining about being sent with the Saxons - he thinks he should be with the Lions or England proper. I hope the Canucks and Eagles (plus whoever else is invited this year) are reading it and welcome him properly to the Churchill Cup.

Hopefully yesterday was our blip - we will need to be better in Scotland. Leinster rested all their big names this weekend too. Hard to predict if that is the best policy.

Confusion about Mauger - rumours of a recurrent back problem as he was meant to be fit for both finals. Such a shame if he misses both.

[finbar]

I agree about Easter. When I first saw him at club level, I thought he was the answer. But club rugby and Test rugby are different beasts. He's a lumberer at Test level. Trouble is, I don't think Crane is, ultimately, any more mobile. Both lack dynamism. At this point in time, though, I think Easter has the more astute brain, which tips me towards him. Anyway, I can't think of an 8 at English club level who even approaches dynamic.

Cipriani needs his arse kicked. He's a media creation, and he laps it up. He certainly has potential, but he needs to develop his game a whole lot more before he thinks about Lions. People like to compare him to the young Matt Giteau who debuted off the bench against England all those years ago. They forget that Giteau went back to S12/14 and learned his craft before he reappeared at Test level. Not that I think Cipriani will ever be a Matt Giteau. Giteau's a very shrewd, very tough nut apart from his wonderful skills. I don't see that in Cipriani's make up.

Shame if Mauger misses out. While he'd be short of match practice, I'd prefer him at 12 and Hipkiss at 13 against Leinster. I think Erinle will get found out against those Leinster centres.

[Havak]

I am sure you are correct - it is Erinle's last game for us anyway as he is off to France. Hope Mauger is fit.

Hugo Ellis (Wasps) , Chris York (Quins) and Dan Williams (Gloucester) are the young gun number 8's. I haven't seen enough of any of them to assess them yet.

That said if we live in a world where Powell can be picked at number 8 and be highly regarded there I think Crane probably counts as a world class number 8 in comparison. Powell is physically immense but as one dimensional as they come.

In any case now we are Champions and hoping Saints beat Bourgoin to lock Wasps out of Europe it makes the Wales/Wasps love in selection for the Lions look even sillier.

Quinlan is appealing - hard to blame him as just touring is worth 38K. But I can't see he has much chance. I still think the out of form Ryan Jones will be picked ahead of Crofty though I am sure Tom will make RSA eventually - there will be injuries.

[finbar]

I thought Andy Powell's limitations had been well exposed in the autumn Tests. Obviously the Lions hierarchy disagree.

But down to serious business. Steve Thompson and George Chuter supporting Dylan Hartley? Speaks volumes for the number of foreign hookers plying their trade in the GP.

In other news, Craig Gower has made it into the Italy squad courtesy of his Italian grandfather. Mmmm. Never saw him play L***** because I never watched the game. Apparently immensely talented. Banished from the Australian game for his inability to drink without turning into a complete and utter mad man. Seems to have been heaving himself in French rugby, so now he gets a chance with the Azzurri. We could do with some genuine skill at #10, which is where I imagine he will play.

[Andydog]

And it has to be said not hugely different from six teams in a twelve team competition being in contention in the last round.

What holds Super 14 back most for me is the seven sides not in contention - no relegation and no incentive to perform on the pitch if the first half dozen fixtures go against you. Admittedly Bristol made that part of the premiership rather boring this season too - but European places kept nearly every other Premiership side trying to round 22.

So final number one tomorrow, followed a week later by something S14 simply can't compete with for scale - the European cup. I know which sides you will be cheering for I think?

I've never seen any S14 teams not trying to win right up until the final round, so I don't think the fear of relegation comes into it. The main difference between the two comps for me is that S14 was designed to breed All Blacks, Wallabies, and Springboks. As a result, the competition is much fiercer and the standard much higher.

As far as the Danny Cipriani soap opera goes – Johnno snubbed him for the Summer test against the Argies and put him in the Saxons instead for the US/Canada tour. That is unless he a) has the 3 inch pin taken out of his ankle, or b) gets called up to the Lions. By selecting him for the Saxons and not the big boys, Johnson is probably telling him to take option A and get himself sorted for the start of the next season. But Cipriani is Cipriani and so he'll ignore this message in the hope that Geech gives him the call.

And now we have the return of pie cart Thompson to England! Things don't seem to be getting any better for England.

[Havak]

Thommo is bizaree I agree - not to mention he must be mad to play on after neck problems? But with Chuter and Hartley ahead of him it's a storm in a tea cup. It's Paice from Exiles who worries me - where is he? He must be injured as I don't see Lardy getting ahead of him otherwise. He was immense for the Saxons last season.

English rugby is certainly in trouble. Two second places in a row in the 6N is unacceptable and reaching the European club final is nothing if we don't win it. More seriously of course we have problems but the gulf at club level between NH and SH is not the chasm you would have me believe.

And in time you may even catch us up.


So Finbar has plank been a naughty boy? He has left Bath with immediate effect.

And will Toulon get better value from a 'name' than perpignan did?

[finbar]

And a known crock at that. At least Perpignan - and Carter - were stiff with the injury.

Yes, Plank has never really grown up. Pity. And such a pity he wasted his better years where he did.

The S14 was actually quite interesting this season. No stand-out teams, the bottom teams knocking off top teams at regular intervals. Made for a tipping nightmare. I'm assuming a Bulls-Hurricanes final. The Chiefs looked mighty nervous on the weekend as they realised how close the big time was. The Hurricanes can do exactly what the Chiefs do only more convincingly and with fewer hiccups. For that matter, the Bulls have been very erratic. I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised to see the Hurricanes get up.

[finbar]

Crofty!

Oh, and James O'Conner has made it into the Wallabies squad. I don't think he's yet 19 but one of the best young talents I've seen in eons. Can play anywhere from inside centre to full back, astonishing maturity, speed to burn, great hands, terrific step, strong defence. Was part of the last NH tour party, had some game time against, from memory, Italy. I suspect he's bound to start at least one of the upcoming Tests against Italy and France.

[Havak]

And yet the news of Crofty being selected is buried behind the selection of yet another out of form Osprey! The Lions management continue to prove they know not a*** from elbow replacing the undeniably talented winger Halfpenny with the also talented but massively out of form stand off in Hooky. Has Hooky had a good game this season?

They should have selected three fly halves from the get go but they did need to be ones in form. The Wasps mouth is in better form! Geecs says he selected him for his kicking - but Armitage is a front line kicker too and a far better player right now - not to mention a more natural replacement for a wing.

And Ford is clearly there purely because of his nationality. Blair though does have a bit about him.

So to be English and travel with the Lions you need to be either a truly exceptional player, a hooker who flatters to deceive or simply any workman you like from Wasps.

Having just watched Bulls power through Crusaders I think the Celtic Lions are in big trouble indeed. And Bulls have my support in the final, maybe Finbars too with his tip gone?

I kept looking for this gulf in class that I was told about. Never saw it to be honest. Both Canterbury and Bulls would probably have been play off candidates in the GP but neither would have stormed ahead of the table on that showing.

[finbar]

Just warming up the TV for the something-or-other final in about ten minutes.

My problem with Hook is that he looks immensely polished in everything he does - smooth hands, smooth runner, though the polish doesn't extend to his goal kicking. He can be good, he can be shocking. Anyway, for all his polish, I don't know where he belongs on a rugby field. He doesn't have a clue about game management so he's never going to be a top #10, I've seen him make a shambles of #12 and, anyway, his defence isn't good enough, and it's also not good enough for #15. Very much the Jack of all Trades, master of none of them. I would have taken Armitage, too.

Didn't see the Bulls. The result doesn't surprise me. The Crusaders are barely a shadow of what they were. They won the right games at the right time to make the finals. There were better teams outside the finals. I saw the Hurricanes surrender to the Chiefs. Very poor effort. Not that the Chiefs were very good, simply better on the night. If the Bulls play to their potential, they should win well.

Now, off to think or myself as a Paddy for the next couple of hours!

Though I fear I might regret it.

[Havak]

Though in fact you won't have.

Bad decision making, particularly with kicking, proved very costly. And two ex-Tigers - Cullen and Jennings - were huge contributors to our downfall.

We lose too many finals these days - oh for a J**** type leader again. And the same quality through the side we had in 2001.

Still Geordan will be happy(ish) - he is a Leinster boy after all.

[finbar]

I'm a happy little temporary Paddy! I honestly thought Leinster had played their final against Munster, that they couldn't lift themselves again. I forgot to take into account the likes of Rocky Elsom. What extraordinary form he's in. Yes, some of Leicester's options were dicky, but their season was a month too long. They peaked towards the end of the GP season. Then they struggled. When they're struggling they revert to the bad old habits - kicking the ball away instead of holding onto it and building. It almost looks like a confidence thing. Very strange. In fact, during the game, I made a mental note that Leinster had stopped kicking the ball away and Leicester hadn't. Only for ten minutes did they look in control - while they were playing against 14.

Whitaker - despite a couple of fluffs - and Sexton - he's a young talent - were far more effective than Dupuy and Vesty, especially around the gain line. Vesty struggled on the bigger stage of finals matches. Though Whitaker's best days are obviously behind him. His greatest assest was always his sure handling and I've seen him mishandle too many times this season. One of the commentators mentioned a possible move to Leicester replacing Dupuy who could be going to Stade. Not a good idea.

Hipkiss had a strong game but I just wish he would do more with the ball. Too often he makes great ground only for the attack to die in the tackle.

And a Leicester back row of Woods, Newby and Crane lacks mongrel. They were outmongreled as well as outplayed yesterday.

Most of all I was happy for the likes of BOD. He deserves it.