World Football Thread XVII : Champions League Final and beyond..

[Joe Kick Ass]

You should've been docked points.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Joe Kick Ass
You should've been docked points.

QFT

[MOBIUS]

The Independent enquiry didn't think so...

Just a bunch of Northern cry babies who would rather deflect the blame from the fact that their teams are a load of bollocks.

Besides, the precedent is when Alan Sugar took over Spurs and was faced with a massive points deduction because of the actions of the previous owners - he argued his case and no points deduction...

Same story here.

Sheffield Utd went down because they are ****. End of.

[Imran Siddiqui]

They should have...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/eng_prem/6638575.stm

The commission concluded that a deduction of points "would normally follow from such a breach of rules".

However, it went on to say that docking points would "not be proportionate".

It gave seven reasons for that decision, including the club's guilty plea, and also:

#
A points deduction so late in the season might have consigned the club to relegation

#
The players and fans of West Ham are in no way to blame for the situation and therefore should not suffer

Goldberg admits he found those reasons for the penalty baffling from a legal standpoint.

"They could have been harder on West Ham," he told BBC Sport.

"In law, the fans have no bearing on the case. It's no good saying 'we don't want to upset the fans'. What about the Wigan fans? The timing of the case being presented is also irrelevant.

"The Commission shot themselves in the foot. It comes down to whether the rules have been broken or not and they should have been penalised appropriately.

"In my opinion, there is no question about it. West Ham received favourable treatment."

In its judgement, the Premier League's independent commission said: "This was not only an obvious and deliberate breach of the rules, but a grave breach of trust as to the Premier League and its constituent members.

"In our finding the club has been responsible for dishonesty and deceit."

****ing cheats

[MOBIUS]

I agree, the previous owner and general manager were guilty of being cheats. Brown was a scumbag, and I for one was ecstatic when he finally sold the club...

But that is the point. This deal which has not benefited West Ham in the slightest, serving mainly to destabilise the team - was absolutely NOTHING to do with the new owners...

The precedent: Spurs '94-'95

May, 1994 – Irregular Payments

During the previous year’s High Court proceedings caused by the acrimonious fall-out between Chairman, Alan Sugar and Chief Executive, Terry Venables, details of irregular payments to players came to light. On 12th May, 1994 the Football Association formally charged Spurs with misconduct for alleged irregular payment to a number of players. These had been made under the previous regime and were allegedly paid to players between 1985 and 1989. In the hope for clemency and that the authorities would treat them leniently, Spurs co-operated with the F.A. and assisted them by handing over documents which appeared to show that the payments had been made.



However, the F.A. were treating the matter very seriously and a fortnight later before any judgement had been given by the enquiry team, the F.A. announced the arrangements should Spurs be demoted from the Premier League to Division 1 as a result of their misdemeanours. Sheffield United who had finished 20th in the Premier League would be the beneficiary’s of Spurs punishment by retaining their place in the top flight.



It was looking bad for Spurs and when the F.A. Commission gave their verdict in mid-June, it wasn’t much better. The investigation covered 40 charges of malpractice which involved payments made to fifteen players. The enquiry found Spurs guilty and imposed a record fine of £600,000. They imposed a deduction of 12 points from their total at the end of the 1994-95 season and were expelled from the next season’s F.A. Cup.



These were the severest punishments ever handed out and shocked the football world. The punishments amounted to relegation by a slow and painful process. Fans were devastated and a heavy cloud of despondency hung over the club. Alan Sugar was so infuriated at the heavy handed nature of the F.A.’s treatment of the club that he immediately announced an appeal. He regarded the punishment as ‘a deliberate vendetta against our club and against me personally.’



The appeal against the penalties imposed by the F.A. enquiry into the charge of misconduct was held in early July. Chairman, Alan Sugar, was the man for the occasion – he presented Spurs’ case against the 12 point deduction, F.A.Cup ban and the £600,000 fine. Having considered the case, the Appeal panel halved the points deduction to six but increased the fine to £1,500,000 as well as maintaining the Cup ban. Sugar was still not satisfied and immediately announced that Spurs would again appeal against the penalties that had been imposed against the club. Sugar felt most aggrieved that the misconduct charges had been under a previous regime at the club and also that he had tried to co-operate with the F.A. over the investigation.



Spurs’ season started under the burden of a six point deduction but the arrival of Jurgen Klinsmann had given the club a much needed boost. The appeal didn’t take place until early December when Alan Sugar had his finest hour as he battled successfully against the Football Association to secure Spurs’ re-instatement to the F.A.Cup. Sugar had been so enraged by the punishment that he had promised to have the decision over turned. He was as good as his word and kept up the fight in spite of various set-backs and won the day, much to the delight of the fans who would be able to look forward to a 3rd Round home tie against Altrincham in January. In the view of the arbitration tribunal, the F.A.’s charges against Spurs had been ‘misconceived, bad in law and should not have been proceeded with….. and it was irrational to impose any penalty other than a fine.’



The authorities had treated Spurs in a heavy handed manner, taking no account of Spurs full co-operation in the investigation and they certainly had not anticipated coming face to face with someone like Alan Sugar. Such an encounter showed the Spurs’ Chairman at his best – he would not be put down by those in authority and was prepared to fight to the bitter end to get justice for Tottenham Hotspur. It is interesting that subsequent enquiries involving other clubs have dragged on interminably and have quietly ‘white-washed’ all issues, with no-one coming to account.

Sense ruled then. Sense rules now.

There are plenty of precedents for every single crime we are being accused of, from '3rd party influence': Tim Howard, Liverpool & Man Utd fielding weakened teams for example - shall we also put Man Utd and Liverpool in the dock also?

When Boro got docked 3 points, they didn't turn up to a match! Far more serious than a bit of dodgy paperwork that allows a third party to yank a couple of players from out under the feet of the team they're playing for!

West Ham stayed up fair and square, their football did the talking, even being 'guilty' of allowing 3rd party meddling - that meddling would have been detrimental to them. Anyone who thinks otherwise is either ignorant or has a serious case of sour grapes - or partisan dickheads jumping on the bandwagon...

The only teams in this 'gang of four' are poor teams threatened with relegation - you will even note that Watford even had the good grace to do nothing.

[Colon™]

The offence doesn't quite justify de facto relegation IMO.

[MOBIUS]

Old Trafford, Sir Matt Busby Way, Manchester, M16. There could be no more daunting venue in which to face 11 full internationals in front of 75,927 fans, roaring on their Premiership champions.

But as he headed north for a nail-biting Survival Sunday, Alan Curbishley had already admitted that he would have taken that final day scenario during Hammers' long, dark winter of discontent.

Indeed, after his side had turned an 89th-minute, 3-2 lead into an improbable 3-4 stoppage time defeat against Tottenham Hotspur on 4 March 2007, Curbs was left to survey the damage of bottom place and a cavernous 10-point gap to safety, with just nine matches remaining.

Certainly, the Premiership table did not make happy reading down West Ham way:

15th - Wigan Athletic - Played: 29. Points: 32. (Goal Diff: -14)
16th - Sheffield United - Played: 29. Points: 31 (Goal Diff: -16)
17th - Manchester City - Played: 27. Points: 30 (Goal Diff: -13)
18th - Charlton Athletic - Played: 29. Points: 24 (Goal Diff: -23)
19th - Watford - Played: 29 Points: 20. (Goal Difference: -25)
20th - West Ham United - Played: 29. Points: 20 (Goal Diff: -29)

Things could only get better. And they duly did.

A controversial victory at Blackburn Rovers (2-1) proved the catalyst for tremendous three-pointers against Middlesbrough (2-0) and Arsenal (1-0).

Not even back-to-back defeats against fellow strugglers Sheffield United and title-chasing Chelsea could knock the Hammers out of their stride, though, and following wonderful wins over Everton (1-0), Wigan Athletic (3-0) and Bolton Wanderers (3-1), those 18 points from a possible 24, had given the in-form Hammers a real lifeline to cling to.

Heading to Manchester United for that nervy, final 90 minutes of a hair-raising campaign, Curbs' commandos had battled their way out of the bottom three knowing that their fate was finally in their own hands:

16th - Sheffield United - Played: 37. Points: 38 (Goal Diff: -22)
17th - West Ham United - Played: 37. Points: 38 (Goal Diff: -25)
18th - Wigan Athletic - Played: 37. Points: 35 (Goal Diff: -23)
19th - Charlton Athletic (R) - Played: 37. Points: 33 (Goal Diff: -26)
20th - Watford (R) - Played: 37. Points: 27 (Goal Diff: -30)

If Hammers could avoid defeat at Old Trafford, then safety was guaranteed, while victory for Sheffield United over Wigan Athletic would condemn the Latics to relegation.

And in a final twist of the knife, the 16th-placed Blades would depart the Premiership if they lost to Paul Jewell's visitors and the Hammers returned from Old Trafford unscathed!

With all eyes on centre stage at the Theatre of Dreams and an ear listening out for events across the Pennines in the City of Steel, a dramatic afternoon was set to unfold:-

Old Trafford - 6 minutes: Wayne Rooney's 20-yard free-kick is deflected over to the relief of the Hammers. Wigan will be relegated.
Bramall Lane - 12 mins: Kevin Kilbane's low, left-wing cross is rifled home by Paul Scharner from 18 yards to put Wigan ahead. Sheffield United will be relegated.
Old Trafford - 30 mins: Hammers have Yossi Benayoun to thank as he makes a double goal-line clearance to deny both Alan Smith and Kieran Richardson.
Bramall Lane - 38 mins: Jagielka's well-flighted cross is bravely headed home by Jon Stead, who clashes heads with 'keeper Mike Pollitt as he equalises for the Blades. Wigan will be relegated.
Old Trafford - 45 mins: Robert Green's huge, stoppage time drop-kick finds its way to Carlos Tevez via Bobby Zamora and the Argentinian ace sneaks between Gabriel Heinze and Wes Brown to give Hammers an audacious lead with his seventh goal in nine games. Wigan will be relegated.
Bramall Lane - 45 mins: Jagielka turns from hero to villain as he recklessly handles Kilbane's stoppage free-kick into the danger area, leaving ex-Hammer and former Blade David Unsworth to blast home from the penalty spot to put Wigan back in front. Sheffield United will be relegated.
Bramall Lane - 54 mins: Danny Webber agonisingly raps the Wigan post.
Old Trafford - 57 mins: Internationals Ryan Giggs, Paul Scholes and Ronaldo step from the bench as Sir Alex Ferguson ups the stakes!
Bramall Lane - 74 mins: Having already been booked for dissent, Wigan's Lee McCulloch is then sent off for chopping Michael Tonge.
Old Trafford - 90 mins: Having survived John O'Shea's penalty appeal and seen Ronaldo's downward header saved by the busy Robert Green, the Hammers again have their 'keeper to thank for palming over Scholes late sizzler seconds before referee Martin Atkinson calls time on the champions. Hammers are safe!
Bramall Lane - 90 mins: Goalkeeper Paddy Kenny is in the thick of it in the Wigan penalty area but the Blades' 11 men cannot force a saving equaliser against the depleted Latics and Mike Dean's final whistle signals relegation for Sheffield United.

"It's such a cruel game," bemoaned Neil Warnock after seeing his side make an instant return to the Championship. "We just couldn't climb the final hurdle and we've suffered the consequences."

The joyous Paul Jewell added: "Wigan shouldn't have been in this position but we were and it's now great honour to be able to stay in the Premiership."

And having pulled off a mini-miracle to keep 15th-placed Hammers in the Premiership the final word went to Curbs.

"To come away from Old Trafford with the win was the bonus ball," he beamed. "But whenever United tried to create anything we got there, we blocked it and put our bodies on the line. It was a great effort and we've pulled off an amazing escape!"

Now we just need a way to persuade Tevez to stay...

[Imran Siddiqui]

West Ham stayed up fair and square, their football did the talking, even being 'guilty' of allowing 3rd party meddling - that meddling would have been detrimental to them.

*ahem* that "meddling" may have been the sole reason that Tevez signed with West Ham. Though his contract has been fixed now, it may have been necessary at the time to allow him to get what he wanted.

And without Tevez these last few weeks, the Irons go down.

Though I guess this opens the green light. There would probably be no fine that would really offset the amount of money made in the Premier League. So, 3rd party deals galore in order to get players clubs normally wouldn't be able to attract, and a slap on the wrist if you get caught...

[Colon™]

3rd party ownership is actually common in other competitions such as Italy's. It's not a free lunch since the third party owner receives (much of) the transfer sum when the player is sold. It's just not allowed in England.

[MOBIUS]

Either you're thick, or you're being deliberately obtuse.

Ploughing on looking stupid when my posts have already answered everything you're still prattling on about...

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
*ahem* that "meddling" may have been the sole reason that Tevez signed with West Ham. Though his contract has been fixed now, it may have been necessary at the time to allow him to get what he wanted.

Tell you what, lets ban ALL loan deals - it's the same ****ing difference...

And without Tevez these last few weeks, the Irons go down.

THESE LAST FEW WEEKS... You said it - it's taken him and a new manager this long to become an effective player for the team. He didn't suddenly appear at this club the finished article you know.

And all the rest of the time we were massively unsettled by their introduction - the ignorant ****ers having a go at us are quick to forget we were doing fine until they arrived! We went to **** when they came - ooh let's cheat by colossally shooting ourselves in the foot and destroying our entire season, what a ****ing great idea!

Though I guess this opens the green light. There would probably be no fine that would really offset the amount of money made in the Premier League. So, 3rd party deals galore in order to get players clubs normally wouldn't be able to attract, and a slap on the wrist if you get caught...

No. Only a total moron would think that. Precisely the opposite and you well know it.

I am looking forward to next season when we stuff your sorry arsed pointless excuse of a team twice over...

[MOBIUS]

Didn't your poor excuse of a team have to cheat to beat us at St Jame's Park during the worst of our bad patch...?

[Colon™]

Football boss shot dead in Sofia

The president of a leading Bulgarian football team, Lokomotiv Plovdiv, has been shot dead in a suburb of the capital, Sofia.

Police say Alexander Tasev, 45, was found with two bullet wounds in his head, in his black Mercedes car.

Mr Tasev owned a large import-export business.

The killing comes less than two years after the club's previous owner, Georgy Iliev, was shot dead by a sniper in a Black Sea resort.

Police linked the Iliev murder with rivalries between drug-trafficking gangs.
Story from BBC NEWS:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/6654625.stm

Published: 2007/05/14 13:45:58 GMT

© BBC MMVII

[Imran Siddiqui]

Please Mobius, you are looking like an idiot (not that that is anything rare from you). Tevez helped West Ham avoid relegation. Of course you weren't going to continue your lucky run of last season. Only you would think that adding two world class players would make the bottom fall apart for a team, or at the very least that a club would think that adding two world class players would make them fall apart (and I'm so sure that you were first up saying "NO, NO!! Don't sign them!").

And as Colon pointed out, it's not allowed in England. To the point where the commission said, and I quote:

In our finding the club has been responsible for dishonesty and deceit.

Yep, dishonesty and deceit are no big deals.... only to a West Ham fan

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Please Mobius, you are looking like an idiot (not that that is anything rare from you).

You're the one who's blatantly ignoring the precedent set by Spurs - obviously because it blows your flimsy argument wide open...

You're also the one ignoring virtually every single other point I have made.

I'm not denying the former management of the team did wrong - they were basically crooks anyway and everyone who supports the club is well glad we're finally shot of them!

But Mr Imran the lawyer is desperately trying to sweep this evidence under the carpet like the best in his profession...

Tevez helped West Ham avoid relegation.

Yes he did - but only he and Mascherano massively destabilised our team sending it into a relegation-bound tailspin. Tevez only started coming up with the goods after we lost to rock bottom Watford twice at home!

Of course you weren't going to continue your lucky run of last season.

Oh do **** off!

Whilst I admit we had a good run at the end - especially the Blackburn result! Before that we had an absymal run of luck, with a mirror image of the Blackburn result being our result in Newcastle when the cheating geordies (yes, Imran is also a hypocrite!), blatantly robbed us of two goals resulting in us only getting a draw - the first goal is literally the most blatant offside I have ever seen...

What goes around, comes around - any luck we had at the end of the season only started some way to make up for all the other bollocks we suffered this season.

Only you would think that adding two world class players would make the bottom fall apart for a team

Where have you been this past season - are you really that ignorant that haven't seen what happened to our results when they first arrived?

or at the very least that a club would think that adding two world class players would make them fall apart (and I'm so sure that you were first up saying "NO, NO!! Don't sign them!").

Absolutely. I was very happy indeed! We all thought it was too good to be true - and guess what, it was! I am simply astounded that our former mgmt thought they could get away with such a blatant and hugely public piece of rule breaking!

And as Colon pointed out, it's not allowed in England. To the point where the commission said, and I quote:

In our finding the club has been responsible for dishonesty and deceit.

Yep, dishonesty and deceit are no big deals.... only to a West Ham fan

Again you ignore 99% of the argument for your one little piece of small-minded petty bollocks...

The Independent Panel has punished us given the precedents that were already there. Yes the mgmt was guilty of deception, but hardly one that was really in our favour as essentially we were playing a couple of loan players owned by a mgmt company as opposed to another team.

Do you think I am happy about this whole sorry episode? Not in the slightest. But I do feel the punishment fits the crime.

IF Brown and Aldridge were still in control, then yes a points deduction would have been a reasonable punishment - but instead a completely innocent party has since taken over and 100% cooperated with the FA...

But then, as a lawyer you have no qualms about shafting innocent people.

Stick to a sport you know, Imran, because you suck at this one...

[LordShiva]

This thread is boring now