Ice Hockey World Cup

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
By using Iginla to kill penalties, Sutter was depriving Iginla of the opportunity to score. When Iginla was taken off the PK main unit, his points when way up. Look back at when he tied the league for scoring. He wasn't killing penalties them.

You're full of ****.

SH TOI in 03-04 when he won the Rocket Richard: 177:28

SH TOI in 06-07: 93:54

Meanwhile, Yelle takes over the main PK duties so the Flames get the best of both worlds.

You're full of ****.

Yelle is ranked 8th on the team in PK TOI, and ranked 4th in terms of forwards in PK TOI.

You, quite simply, don't know what the hell you're talking about. You think you know hockey, but the fact is you haven't seen nearly enough of it lately to know what you're talking about. You're a typical, ignorant Leafs fan. You don't know hockey.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Asher



Yelle is ranked 8th on the team in PK TOI, and ranked 4th in terms of forwards in PK TOI.

Irrespective of the fullness of **** of Tingkai, I wondered if in your calculation you used the total shorthanded TOI for the season or a per game number.

I ask because I would have expected Yelle to be in the top 2 forwards on shorthanded time per game. I suspect that you used the overall number and there the fact that he missed 26 games due to injury would definitely move him down.

Every game I saw, Yelle did a lot of PK time.

Who were ahead of him on that list Nilson (although he only played 7 more games than Yelle) , Freisen and Lombardi??

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Tingkai


Now according to your theory, the one that for some strange reason Flubber believes, Joe Thornton isn't used to kill penalties because he's can't play defensively. And Crosby doesn't kill penalties so he's another one-way player. Yeah, right.

I'm not necessarily in accord with Asher but I do agree with him on the "Doan as captain" issue.

On Nash, I think he is a phenomenal talent who played amazing at the worlds. While I don't consider him the worst floater out there, I don't see him as being labelled "two-way player' just yet. I saw him play a few times this year and he was pretty inconsistent and not always as diligent in his own end as he should be. perhaps he will grow into the label but with respect, he wasn't there last year in the NHL


Crosby? I wouldn't think of his as a two-way guy. HIs best defensive attribute is his ability to be dangerous in the other teams end. He's not my first choice as the guy to deliver a big hit or to cover a guy in front of his own net or block a shot. He may be the biggest offensive talent in the world.


Who's two way? Danny Cleary of the Wings this year is one example

ON the Flames?

probably Jarome is closest
Primeau Nilson and Friesen I think thay had hopes for being strong two-way players but the offense wasn't
there as much as was hoped.

Lombardi doesn't hit enough and takes a few too many nights off
Tanguay and Huselius-- NOPE

So there is no shame in my not labelling Nash a solid "two-way" player. My standards for it are high--




Oh and plus minus over 9 games (probably half of which Canada would have any chance of losing) is not really a great indicator of anything.

[Flubber]

Oh ya -- I just checked the scouting report of a number of players on tsn.ca You folks can hate them if you wish but I found them pretty much on par with my own views although they may be a litlte dated


Shane Doan

Assets Has great size and loves to throw it around. Is an excellent two-way player and is extremely durable. Can be considered the ultimate team player.

Flaws Struggles with consistency in the goal-scoring department. Is not good enough offensively to be the franchise player the Coyotes want him to be.

Career potential Power forward.



Nash

Assets Has outstanding goal-scoring instincts and excellent hockey sense. Is big enough to ward off defenders. Dominates down low.

Flaws Needs more work in his play without the puck. Is still a work-in-progress in terms of his playmaking ability.

Career potential Franchise winger.


Cleary

Assets Has decent size, great speed and a heavy, accurate shot. Can line up on either side of center and displays brief flashes of offensive brilliance.

Flaws His biggest flaw is attitude. He was hyped too early, so his work ethic has suffered greatly as a result. Must also prove he can step up his game when given added responsibilities at the NHL level.

Career potential Checking line forward.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher
SH TOI in 03-04 when he won the Rocket Richard: 177:28

SH TOI in 06-07: 93:54

He had 73 points in 03-04

In 2001-02, when he set his record for most goals, and led the league in goals, and had his highest points, 96, he played 51 minutes short-handed.

As he spent more time killing penalties, his point production went down.

When he was finally taken off the PK unit, he was able to contribute on the production side and his points went back into the 90s, and probably could have been in the 100s if he hadn't been injured for a bunch of games.

Sutter wasted Iginla's talents on the PK.

Originally posted by Asher
Yelle is ranked 8th on the team in PK TOI, and ranked 4th in terms of forwards in PK TOI.

For the season, Yelle is ranked 8th for PK time, but, you obviously don't know that he was injured for 25-odd games.

Look at his PK time per game, and he's ranked fourth on the team and the top forward for the PK unit. That's because he's a checker and a penalty killing specialist.

It must be embarrasing for you, a Flames fan, to have a Leafs fan explain your team to you.

[notyoueither]

:burn:

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Flubber
On Nash, I think he is a phenomenal talent who played amazing at the worlds. While I don't consider him the worst floater out there, I don't see him as being labelled "two-way player' just yet. I saw him play a few times this year and he was pretty inconsistent and not always as diligent in his own end as he should be. perhaps he will grow into the label but with respect, he wasn't there last year in the NHL

Well you saw what you saw.

I saw Nash play a half dozen games at the WC in 2005, against the best players (it was the lockout year). He was amazing and not just offensively. He played an all-round game and showed incredible skills for such a young guy.

He looked just as good the other day in the gold medal game.

So why are we seeing different players?

Maybe the answer is in the coaching. Hitchcock didn't do a great job in Philly developing young guys like Carter and Richards, both first-round picks. Did you see Nash when Hitchcock was coaching or before?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
He had 73 points in 03-04

In 2001-02, when he set his record for most goals, and led the league in goals

He had more points this year because he was playing with more talented linemates like Alex Tanguay.

The simple fact is he won the Rocket Richard while playing tons of time on the PK. Iginla puts in lots of TOI total, and fatigue is never really an issue. You seem to underestimate his level of fitness.

Sutter wasted Iginla's talents on the PK.

Iginla won the Rocket Richard under Sutter and killing penalties. You were flat-out wrong, so why continue trying to argue the point? Are you really this retarded?

Another thing you might wanna check out is how awful the PK was in 2001-2002. Bob Boughner was the top PK guy, for christ sakes. The team was god awful.

It's amazing that you accuse Sutter of wasting his talent -- Iginla has MANY talents, one of which is being a very good penalty killer. Not using him on the PK surely was one reason the 01-02 Flames were legendary in their crappiness. I'm sure you knew that, too.

Sutter came in and "wasted" Iginla's talent and got the core team to Game 7 of the SCF. What a moron, eh?

As a side note -- it's amazing that the only talent that exists in hockey to you is goal scoring. You think it should determine who is captain, and you think it's far more important than any defensive skills (like penalty killing), apparently.

For the season, Yelle is ranked 8th for PK time, but, you obviously don't know that he was injured for 25-odd games.

Look at his PK time per game, and he's ranked fourth on the team and the top forward for the PK unit. That's because he's a checker and a penalty killing specialist.

I understand and did check that, but in the end the per-game totals don't matter if the guy's injured a lot. The top PKers on the team are ultimately the ones who are on the PK the most, for whatever reason. In any case, you're still wrong. Yelle isn't the top PK player on the Flames as he's ranked 4th in the per-game total.

It must be embarrasing for you, a Flames fan, to have a Leafs fan explain your team to you.

You're "explaining" things alright, but you're being really stupid. You don't understand hockey in general (Nash as Captain of Team Canada? Seriously. Wow.), let alone a team a world away from you that you seriously dislike.

[Tingkai]

Asher, it's got nothing to do with ice time, fitness or fatigue. It is simply this: every minute spent killing a penalty is a minute that can't be use to score goals.

Since you can't understand this basic truism, there is no point in carrying on this discussion.

[Asher]

Asher, it's got nothing to do with ice time, fitness or fatigue. It is simply this: every minute spent killing a penalty is a minute that can't be use to score goals.

This is more of an indictment of players like McCabe taking all those dumb penalties than it is for talented players not being on the PK.

BTW, have you heard of "shorthanded goals"? Matthew Lombardi spends a lot of time on the PK on the Flames, not because he's a talented defensive specialist, but because he's a very speedy sniper...

[Tingkai]

Are you really so stupid to think that a talented goal scorer like Iginla has a better chance of scoring a goal while killing a penalty than playing even handed? Come on, you're not that stupid.

And if you look at that Game 7, when the Flames were behind, and Sutter decided it would be a good idea for Iginla to spend five minutes of his ice time killing penalties, that should have made you scream: Sutter you ****ing idiot. Imagine what Iginla could have done spending those five minutes playing even-handed or on the power play. Just one goal would have changed the game.

Now, for me, I'm glad that Sutter was an idiot. Tampa was the better team and deserve to win, although I do wonder what would have happened if Sutter had half a brain.

I also wonder why you don't play hockey. This week I'll turn 44, and I'll also go out, strap on my skates and play. At my age, playing takes a lot more work, and a lot longer to recover, but I still love it.

And I can imagine having a Poly pick-up game. The young guys here who can play would probably skate circles around me, but it would still be a blast. Because, well, it's just a great game to play.

So here's the question for you: You obviously care about hockey, so why don't you play?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
Are you really so stupid to think that a talented goal scorer like Iginla has a better chance of scoring a goal while killing a penalty than playing even handed? Come on, you're not that stupid.

No one said that.

You seem to think the only aspect of hockey that matters is goal scoring. You are wrong.

Iginla is a fantastic penalty killer and two-way forward. He's a well-rounded player. A good coach uses well-rounded players in situations that utilize their skills. If Iginla can prevent a goal from being scored on the PK, that's just as valuable as scoring a goal at EV.

Your knowledge of hockey is clearly very shallow. Rec-league level, I'd reckon.

So here's the question for you: You obviously care about hockey, so why don't you play?

Because some of us have real jobs and other obligations.

[Tingkai]

And still he doesn't get it.

In game seven of the finals, Sutter had Iginla killing penalties for nearly five minutes. Five minutes! What an idiot. And only a Calgarian would wonder why they lost the game by one goal.